Shoutbox

I kept telling myself I wouldn't join this petty argument, but I need to agree with PooM on this.  Granted the average user should be smart enough to know the basics, but face the facts; the average user is shifting from teenagers to first time users.  They won't know how to use shortcuts, and they don't know what the F1 button does.  There are probably 25 to 30 percent of users that know the basics, and then there's the other 70 to 75 percent that make companies like Geek Squad rich over 404 Errors (yes, I've seen this happen).

Only a small fraction of computer users actually know what keyboard shortcuts are.  Unfortunately, the only people that beta test are people that know what they're doing.  I've seen a large amount of people going into my local CompUSA asking to buy a new computer because they're not able to go to a certain website, or their computer won't save images as anything but Bitmaps.  If, by your standards, the average user is smart enough to know basics, then 70 to 75 percent of users are below average.

On a side note: Demanding a lock when a person feels a thread is spiraling out of control (which, I may add, this thread was), then the thread does in fact need to be locked.  This is coming an Administrator of two forums, and a Moderator of three, with ties to people that have been PAID to be operators of IRC channels.  It is not immature to do so at all, it would be called 'Stopping the fight before it starts' in this case.

If Poom had not gone into asumptions this convo would have been done with already. Seriously what does our age have to do with it, or how much we chat? To me this felt like he was telling us we aren't doing our jobs properly (lack of respect). Keystorm explained everything, yet Poom wasn't reading and kept holding on how "good" his idea is. I explained the whole thing in a different way, same result.

Dragging TB into the whole conversation was wrong aswell and totally not to the point (this was again an assumption that we don't listen).

[OFFTOPIC]
Poom, take a look at my Bio (in profile)..you can see i also betatest stuffplug and therefor work closely with TB aswell (yup, we met even..search forums for Paris and/or London).
[/OFFTOPIC]

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Originally posted by viper2681
Granted the average user should be smart enough to know the basics, but face the facts; the average user is shifting from teenagers to first time users.  They won't know how to use shortcuts, and they don't know what the F1 button does.  There are probably 25 to 30 percent of users that know the basics, and then there's the other 70 to 75 percent that make companies like Geek Squad rich over 404 Errors (yes, I've seen this happen).

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Even so, that is not a reason to bloat Plus! with buttons..wich imo makes everything more confusing even (and ugly to look at). If they don't know, they can learn right? It will benefit them in the long run. And there's always the rightclick menu, what is so hard about that (that's another thing that is basic in every single program)?

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Only a small fraction of computer users actually know what keyboard shortcuts are.  Unfortunately, the only people that beta test are people that know what they're doing.

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You can rest assured that the tabbed convo feature is tested properly and that we are and will make suggestions in how to make it better before it is released to the public to make sure everybody will be pleased with it (experienced and inexperienced users). Patchou and betatesters work closely together to make all this possible. We do listen to suggestions, but also comment on it (because we know what we are talking about)..if this is taken the wrong way then sorry (don't expect us to cheer for every single suggestion made).

Well, I share the opinion of Cookie (another Tester and a senior in this board as great helper):

There's two ways to make interfaces: The easy dumb-making way and the learner's way.

The dumb-making way is based upon users not having any knowledge about shotrtcuts and context menues and having it all displayed and placed  obvious and/or non-standard to make the use easier. This won't help people to get used the way WIndows works. All applications have features hidden to the first look (and specially MS apps)

The learner's way is based upon adding methods the user may not know, but helping to discover them. This will help them understand there's a series of features and methods that, although relatively unknown, they should learn to be more productive with all other application. Like using Photoshop without shortcuts makes you like 30% slower. A couple of days ago I suggested something that would make several things easier to "girlie-users" but still not have it all simply displayed on screen (see [suggestion] Tip of the day).

For the others, don't get on Sunshine, because it's true that he stated wrong supossitions trying to ofend me (although stating the opposite). I mean what kind of argument is stating that I'm 30+. I know 30+ people who never used a computer and I know 30+ who are compute genius.
He was also presuming I don't use Messenger while I wouldn't be Elite nor Tester nor Translator if I didn't.


To make some things clear to you, Poom:
Poom. I've been using Messenger Plus! for 3 years now, I've been in these forums for 2 years and I'm driving my (helped by several other Hispanic people around) own successful Hispanic Messenger Plus! forums for 1 year. As an admin you may post the last locking post because your decision is the last decision, but here you aren't and you can't "demand" a lock in such way, not letting people reply to your acusations! This is common sense, so don't come calling us immature, because it's you whos behaving like that!
Also, I spend everyday at least some time for chatting with friends, co-workers, co-admins, colleagues helping people in solving their problems and I'm usually online 24h.
This should not interest anyone, but as it seems you think you're top and better than the rest, I'm telling you that you get back on earth and stop thinking so selfishly acusing us of being inaccurate or insensible.

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Originally posted by Poom
No, I am not the person who is not reading your posts, you guys are the people who are not reading my posts. See the quotes above. You guys are being plain ignorant at what I am saying and say something totally irrelevant.

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Be very sure that we (testers) _do_ read whole threads (if we don't, we say so) and understand posts very good and quick. The thing is that we also immediatly see beyond what is suggested, what the consequences are of some suggestions, etc. We don't stare blindly on the suggestion only, we immediatly see further then that (and that's the difference between a reply with "I like this" and the replies you got).

Thus it is exactly about that what KeyStorm and the others were telling you about. So, please don't accuse KeyStorm and the others for not reading and what not! They understand your points very well, in fact they may understand it better then you do (in a way) as they do have access to the beta's and the knowledge of the whole picture (as adding a feature is _never_ an easy streat forward job; there are always things you need to take in concideration). Also, the testers consist of people who know what they are talking about when it comes to (G)UI's and making something userfriendly, they know how both new users and experienced users interract with a program, in fact some are even professional designers of these things...

This not being ignorant or even irrelevant at all.

If you want to accuse us of something, then you can only accuse us of immediatly beginning to talk about all the underlying stuff and consequences of suggestions etc, instead of simply stating "I like this" or "I don't like it" without any arguments or whatever. If you interpret that as not reading and not listening (as this is how this discussion started), then I'm sorry to say it, but then you're wrong.




Anyways, back to the subject...

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Originally posted by Poom
I suggested 3 buttons, while you guys are talking about buttons and shortcuts, which are irrelevant.

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They are certainly not irrelevant. This is one of the things I talked about above; those are things which we think about immediatly if you add such buttons. They go hand in hand...

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Originally posted by Poom
From seeing the responds of other members here, I can say that they like the idea.

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Liking something and seeing the bigger picture of something being added are totally two different things. And if I may be so blunt, non-testers have, in this case, not the knowledge to talk about/see all the consequences of this as they don't have access to the latest private beta's (where things are already different than in the leaked beta you based your suggestion on).

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Originally posted by Poom
If you read my posts with such attention, then you would know that I want 3 buttons, not buttons to format, buttons to change status, and so on.

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If you think beyond your simple suggestion then this is what it is going to be. People will "demand" for more buttons. Buttons which are far less usefull. There is a line to be drawn. And that line is currently no extra buttons with doubtfull usefullness.

And about those buttons:
1) the add contact buttons is pretty useless, double clicking on the tray icon opens your contactlist and from there you can choose whoever you want _and_ in the way you want it sorted and viewed. This can't be achieved by the method you mentionned. And there wont be an extra dialog be made especially for this, as it will be nothing more then a stripped down contactlist on its own, making it again pretty useless and double work (unless a second contactlist is made, which is obviously double work for nothing).

2) the ungroup/group buttons aren't needed also as this will be achieved directly with the mouse. And you also have shortcuts and a context menu you can use. Because of these available ways, adding buttons aren't nessecairly needed and thus it would only make the GUI bloated and confusing.

3) the close buttons aren't needed also. The standard close button (the cross) will simply keep its function. This is the most logical and most intuitive way. Closing all tabs together isn't something which will be done many times (in fact, very rarely) and thus adding a button especially for that is not needed. Furthermore, it will make the chance of accidently closing all convo's very big. Thus, not user friendly at all.

4) The arrows, to navigate, or of course already there.

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Originally posted by viper2681
On a side note: Demanding a lock when a person feels a thread is spiraling out of control (which, I may add, this thread was), then the thread does in fact need to be locked.  This is coming an Administrator of two forums, and a Moderator of three, with ties to people that have been PAID to be operators of IRC channels.  It is not immature to do so at all, it would be called 'Stopping the fight before it starts' in this case.

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It is mostly in the way he asked it. Demanding is not something you do on a board and especially not when you're new or in such a situation like this. It could have been asked in normal friendly manner...

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If Poom had not gone into asumptions this convo would have been done with already. Seriously what does our age have to do with it, or how much we chat? To me this felt like he was telling us we aren't doing our jobs properly (lack of respect). Keystorm explained everything, yet Poom wasn't reading and kept holding on how "good" his idea is. I explained the whole thing in a different way, same result.

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Now, I think that you three are getting wayyy too biassed. You lef out your own mistakes and try to mention only my mistakes, which is a few comparing to yours. What about saying that I am flaming? I see that the word "flaming" has gone from your mouth when you realised that it is your mistake. Also, I see that the whole thing about immature by demanding lock request has gone. What you are accusing me now is saying 30+ thing and the chat often or not.

Of course, you do not get what the 30+ thing means. I did not try to offend you in anyway and I already mentioned that. The point is that when people are getting older, they like simpler programs. Dynamic DPs and such are "bloats" to the older target group, while my friends like them. There is a difference when people get old. I have never said such thing that 30+ people are dumb and do not program well, KeyStrom.

As for the chatting a lot, that is for the ungroup button. If you acutally chat to, say 5 people at the same time, talking in tabs WILL BE VERY ANNOYING. I chat with 5 people at the same time in Trillian a lot. Is that relevant? Is that offending you?

Since when have I said that you guys are not doing your jobs properly. I have never said those things at all. Have I said that you guys are dumb old people who do not have anyone to chat to? That is all the accusation you guys are putting towards me. What about the part that you directly insult me as immature when I wanted a lock to avoid further fight? Isn't that even worse? What about accusing me for flaming when there is no sign of flaming?

How could this chat end when you guys are accusing me of things that I have never done? It is as if 3 of you are trying to gang up on me without a reason. Maybe Cookie has received biassed information. In history, we learn to look at both sides and don't depend on one source. Cookie, look there for a minute and see if I have insulted KeyStrom or SunShine. KeyStrom directly insulted me as immature while SunShine directly accused me of flaming without the truth. Now, SunShine is not using the word flaming anymore. There are things that you guys need to think about.

KeyStrom, I am lazy to quote, but no, I did not ask for a lock request because I am wrong. I asked for a lock request because the topic is not what it is meant for and you are starting a fight. I have never said that I am the top in anyway. Since when did I say that? Accusing you guys? Isn't that MY word? Isn't your "I've been using Messenger Plus! for 3 years now, I've been in these forums for 2 years and I'm driving my (helped by several other Hispanic people around) own successful Hispanic Messenger Plus! forums for 1 year." more like "I am the best" than what I posted? Dude, you are saying what I am supposed to say. I don't know when I have accused you without accuracy, more like what you are doing. I give prooves, but where are yours? You say that I think I am the best and that I accuse you of the wrong things, but where are your prooves? I am giving you proofs.

Besides, if you really read my posts with attention, what about the things I quoted? Don't you admit your mistakes? You are accusing me without anyquote nor any truth.

Demanding a lock is something that is actually something you do on a board. Maybe you havn't been in many webbaords, Cookie. There are lots of lock request in messageboards and it is not something immature. Saying that it is not something on a board shows that you havn't been in enough messageboard and makes you look immature, not me.

If you have worked with TB a lot, then what about the comment KeyStrom made towards Stuffplug? That is a very bizzare thing.

Stop all the program stuff and admit your mistake first, or else the conversation will never go in the right direction.

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Originally posted by Poom
Cookie, look there for a minute and see if I have insulted KeyStrom or SunShine.

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Yes you did. In the way you said certain things (eg: the age thing; if you said that like you did in that previous post than there wouldn't have been any flaming about that. The first time you mentionned it was indeed not very friendly towards +30's and could easly be taken as offensive (I took it offensive also)). So, you may not have insulted them directly, but you surely did indirectly...

And they insulted you back directly.

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Originally posted by Poom
Stop all the program stuff and admit your mistake first, or else the conversation will never go in the right direction.

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There is that demanding tone again we don't need to do anything. Also, there were no mistakes made, there is nothing to admit (excl. the flaming from _both_ sides)...

=_=a You sure read my posts with real good attention.[/sarcasm]

I indirectly insulted you guys? Sine when have I? When does "You 30+ years old!" become an insult? Didn't I clarify what I actually meant? Besides, isn't direct flaming the act of imature? This is very bizarre, VERY BIZARRE. Yuo guys don't even read my posts and say that you "understand things very well without having to read much". I don't know since when has the word "30+" become an insult to you when I actually said that there was no offense intended and sorry if I did offend you with that. I have also explained why I have said that. If I really want to be the best and am out of earth, I would not have said such things, especially "sorry". I am a buddhist and buddhism does not teach me to try to be the best, but to humble and admit when a mistake is made.

Why oh why such kind of thread ended up like this? please, everyone, cool down and go back to the original post. I really don't want to see this kind of attitude on the forum, let's all be friend, hands in hands .

Thank you for the suggestions Poom however, it's a little early for that. I suggest you wait and try version 3.60 and after using it, feel free to come back and post your suggestions to improve it .

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Originally posted by Poom
KeyStrom directly insulted me as immature

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It's not an insult, its a founded opinion, others may be sharing with me or not. Don't take things out of context, once again.
And my pseudo is KeyStorm.

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Originally posted by Poom
I did not ask for a lock request because I am wrong

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Who said that? Firstly, you're not wrong, you just have an opinion Sunshine, Cookie and I don't share. Secondly, you didn't ask for a lock, you demanded a lock.

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Originally posted by Poom
more like "I am the best" than what I posted?

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This is just for you to stop making wrong suppositions about me, which is very offending in my culture, and I'm pretty sure in your's, too.
My life is uninteresting to you and I don't like to tell what I am and what I'm not. But I plainly can't accept epople coming and making blind and stupid remarks about what I do and what I don't.

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Originally posted by Poom
I am giving you proofs

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I've been showing you with arguments and proofs why I don't share your opinion and why I find your words towards me offending during all the damn thread. Will you just read?

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Originally posted by Poom
Demanding a lock is something that is actually something you do on a board. Maybe you havn't been in many webbaords, Cookie. There are lots of lock request in messageboards and it is not something immature. Saying that it is not something on a board shows that you havn't been in enough messageboard and makes you look immature, not me.

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Demanding, demanding, demanding... That makes you immature. You just demand things to be done your way and if someone (namely me myself) opposes your opinion you raise with sarcasm, ignoring, and distorting our words. What else do you expect form us? To apologise? For what, gods' sake?!

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Originally posted by Poom
I am a buddhist and buddhism does not teach me to try to be the best, but to humble and admit when a mistake is made.

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Happy you, then you yourself will not discover you're making mistakes unless you listen to others. If you don't want to listen to us, then just don't annoy us with your sarcasm and "I know best" posting. We have explained you with plenty of reasons why we don't like that concept UI additions. You don't seem to want to listen to us and just wanna hear people approving your work.
Well, then I humbly think that goes against your culture/religion, I blindly assume that, because it's a way to ignore the bad critics one gets from outside.
You should not feel sorry for people in the age of 30+ If I understood right. I think people of 30+ may feel offended because you state wrong things about them that should in your opinion be linked to that age.


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^This is my line, it's true, the thread should not go on this way...

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Originally posted by Patchou
hands in hands

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I humbly offer my hand.