Shoutbox

Though I don't see Patchou replying here anymore, I have some idea of tab conversation for Patchou to consider. I lazily made a picture in Paint for this.



The most left button is the open a new tab button. The most right button is the close tab button. The second right button is the moving current tab out of this window. And the last ones, the third right button are the up and down buttons to view the upper/lower group of tabs, similar to scroll keys in places like web browser. Anyway, the dark blue up arrow indicates that you can scroll up, while the light blue down arrow indicates that you can scroll down.

I actually think that this way is actually very convenient and does not waste much space. I hope Patchou will read this...

well the "new tab" should be very easy as all it has to do is launch the "Send an instant message" window in msn

and all the functions you want these buttons to do are also already existing features so i dont see any problem with them being implemented

good ideas

Well, point by point:

Open new contact window: I see several problems. People might think it means add a new contact to the list, add/invite a contact to the conversation or open a new conversation with this contact. This, ofcourse would be partially solved with accurate tooltips and titles, but still it would not be as intuitive as it should. Also, it takes one double click on the Messenger tray icon to open the contact list and choose the contact. Send an instant Message is not modified by Plus!' Custom Contact Names, so what users with that option enables (quite a few), will only see email addresses, like in the invite box. Also it is much easier to open a conversation from the Contact List. It would be a problem, in my honest opinion.

Close button: Exactly below there is an exact equal button that closes the conversation/tab. If any use, it had to close _all_ tabs. However this would be very dangerous, because it may be mistaken with closing only a tab with catastrophic effects.

Detach button: I'd agree on that if it wasn't for the next reason: It is hardly used and there's already a mouse combination to do it (Middle-click, but probably double-click in the future beta versions)

Navigation Arrows: They already exist. Not in a form of "navigating through tab groups", but scrolling across tabs that ay be hidden outside the visible tab bar for space reasons.

Sorry to be skeptic, but we're testing it and I can tell you what is needed, what not, and what would annoy.

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Originally posted by KeyStorm
Well, point by point:

Open new contact window: I see several problems. People might think it means add a new contact to the list, add/invite a contact to the conversation or open a new conversation with this contact. This, ofcourse would be partially solved with accurate tooltips and titles, but still it would not be as intuitive as it should. Also, it takes one double click on the Messenger tray icon to open the contact list and choose the contact. Send an instant Message is not modified by Plus!' Custom Contact Names, so what users with that option enables (quite a few), will only see email addresses, like in the invite box. Also it is much easier to open a conversation from the Contact List. It would be a problem, in my honest opinion.

Close button: Exactly below there is an exact equal button that closes the conversation/tab. If any use, it had to close _all_ tabs. However this would be very dangerous, because it may be mistaken with closing only a tab with catastrophic effects.

Detach button: I'd agree on that if it wasn't for the next reason: It is hardly used and there's already a mouse combination to do it (Middle-click, but probably double-click in the future beta versions)

Navigation Arrows: They already exist. Not in a form of "navigating through tab groups", but scrolling across tabs that ay be hidden outside the visible tab bar for space reasons.

Sorry to be skeptic, but we're testing it and I can tell you what is needed, what not, and what would annoy.

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Open a new tab: I actually find that right-clicking+send an instant message is way better. Offline contacts are not included. Besides, it is not laggy. I don't know how you think that clicking one button is harder than openning the contact list and scroll down the laggy list. :/ If you think that the send an instant message thing is too hard because it is in e-mails, then I guess that Patchoue could make a new window for contacts in nicknames, or even just a list like the start menu. As for the confusion that may cause due to the add new contact button, like I have said, I lazily made the picture and the buttons can be something else. I think that people won't be that confused though, since when you click at the button once, you know what it does and should be able to remember what it does. Besides that, the button is near the tabs, which indicates that it does something about tabs.

Close button: I thought that the default close button is for closing the window, not a tab. If that is for closing a tab and the upper one is for closing a window, then that is weird IMO. The default one is already for closing window, which should be left as it is to avoid confusion. The one I made is actually near the tabs, which should indicates how it relates to tabs.

Detach button: Though I nerver used it on Trillian, it does have some obvious use. For example, when there are two people chatting with you very actively, you would be annoyhed when you have to switch tabs all the times. Seperating the tabs into different windows makes life a lot easier to me.

Navigation Arrows: If it already exists, then there is no problem to talk about this now.

My main concern is how the tabs bar is horizontally above the con, while the current thing plus! (beta) has (according to some blog) is actually vertical and wastes a lot of space, IMO.

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Originally posted by Poom
Offline contacts are not included

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You can group them out and contract the group, like I do.

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Originally posted by Poom
I don't know how you think that clicking one button is harder than openning the contact list and scroll down the laggy list

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Well, the only difference is that you have to double-click on the tray icon. And if the contact list is laggy for you, hide the DPs and make the buddies small.
Besides, that dialog does not show any aparent order other than alphabetical, no groups, no hidden groups... etc

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Originally posted by Poom
The default one is already for closing window, which should be left as it is to avoid confusion. The one I made is actually near the tabs, which should indicates how it relates to tabs.

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Have you ever used Word?
Lower close button: close document
Upper Close button: close application

No how many times have you missed the button and closed the whole application?
Middle click on the tab closes it. This means any tab. Esc closes current tab. I agree there should be a conbo or a context menu option to close all tabs, but I wouldn't add a button. Also, the tab can be set to the top or to the left of the convos, so it wouldn't have much sense to place a close button anyway.

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Originally posted by Poom
Though I nerver used it on Trillian, it does have some obvious use.

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It does indeed: right click > Ungroup this chat.
If you become used to it, you can use Ctrl+F8, which is quite faster than putting a whole new button. Also, as I said, there may be a mouse combination for that.

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Originally posted by KeyStorm

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Originally posted by Poom
Offline contacts are not included

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You can group them out and contract the group, like I do.

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What if the user likes grouping the contact in groups, not online/offline. This actually limits the options, obviously. I'd rather have a new window popping up with all online contacts.

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Originally posted by Poom
I don't know how you think that clicking one button is harder than openning the contact list and scroll down the laggy list

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Well, the only difference is that you have to double-click on the tray icon. And if the contact list is laggy for you, hide the DPs and make the buddies small.
Besides, that dialog does not show any aparent order other than alphabetical, no groups, no hidden groups... etc

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Like I said, what if someone wants the contact list with dps. This limits the options. Also, like I said, I'd rather have a new window than limitting my contact list. Besides, the new windows could be coded so that it can be sorted in different ways.

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Originally posted by Poom
The default one is already for closing window, which should be left as it is to avoid confusion. The one I made is actually near the tabs, which should indicates how it relates to tabs.

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Have you ever used Word?
Lower close button: close document
Upper Close button: close application

No how many times have you missed the button and closed the whole application?
Middle click on the tab closes it. This means any tab. Esc closes current tab. I agree there should be a conbo or a context menu option to close all tabs, but I wouldn't add a button. Also, the tab can be set to the top or to the left of the convos, so it wouldn't have much sense to place a close button anyway.

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Did you mean know instead of no? If it is no, then it doesn't make much sense there. >.> Anyway, I have used Words and know how it is. This is just a suggestion and could be adjusted to be better. It would be better if we have close tab and close window buttons seperated. There it is, a possible way of having both buttons. Of course, there can be better ideas, but having two of them seperated is better than having one. As for the shortcuts, I use those stuff my self for firefox, but normal people won't use them. Typical computer users do not use Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V. So, I think it'd be better if we have a button, not just a shortcut or a right click menu. Besides that, isn't it Patchou who decides whether the button shall be put or not? =P Let's hear Patchou's opinion.

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Originally posted by Poom
Though I nerver used it on Trillian, it does have some obvious use.

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It does indeed: right click > Ungroup this chat.
If you become used to it, you can use Ctrl+F8, which is quite faster than putting a whole new button. Also, as I said, there may be a mouse combination for that.

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Like I said, typical user won't use those Ctrl shortcuts and would like a button instead of a right click. I like Ctrl shortcuts myself, but the fact is that the majority uses buttons. There is actually no harm at all putting a button there, taking up only about 10x10 pixels. It is better than having to right click then choose the option. Having a button is better than not having one to me.


I don't know why you do not want them so much, but I can't see any harm in adding the buttons for those Ctrl shortcuts. Of course, this is just a suggestion and it could be compromised to make the best choice. Besides that, this is actually an interface suggestion and I don't see why you would bother adding Ctrl shortcuts to the conversation. Right-click has something to do with interface, but I don't really see the point of putting Ctrl shortcuts here.

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Originally posted by Poom
Ctrl+F8,

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Why ctrl+F8.... haha... I'll never remember that...it should be something that is ctrl+a letter, but just one that's not used for anything else.

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Originally posted by qgroessl

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Originally posted by Poom
Ctrl+F8,

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Why ctrl+F8.... haha... I'll never remember that...it should be something that is ctrl+a letter, but just one that's not used for anything else.

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That is actually posted by KeyStrom, not me, since I do not have the beta anyways. Actually, that is excatly what I am saying. You see now, KeyStrom? Typical users won't remember those Ctrl shortcuts. This quote proves what I have said.

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Originally posted by Poom
Typical users won't remember

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Typical users won't use the ungroup feature more than maybe once a month if ever, trust me

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Originally posted by Poom
What if the user likes grouping the contact in groups, not online/offline.

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Oh dear... you can do both.

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Originally posted by Poom
Did you mean know instead of no? If it is no, then it doesn't make much sense there. >.> Anyway, I have used Words and know how it is. This is just a suggestion and could be adjusted to be better. It would be better if we have close tab and close window buttons seperated. There it is, a possible way of having both buttons. Of course, there can be better ideas, but having two of them seperated is better than having one. As for the shortcuts, I use those stuff my self for firefox, but normal people won't use them. Typical computer users do not use Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V. So, I think it'd be better if we have a button, not just a shortcut or a right click menu. Besides that, isn't it Patchou who decides whether the button shall be put or not? =P Let's hear Patchou's opinion.

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Nah, I meant "now".
There should be an option to close all tabs at once, I'm not discussing that. I'm just discussing it _should not_ be another close button. Better than that a key combo like Ctrl-Esc. Sure, typical users don't really know much about combos, but they don't have any option to close all coversations anyway, except maybe for closing or logging out Messenger. Adding another close button will be more a problem than a solution.

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Originally posted by Poom
I don't know why you do not want them so much, but I can't see any harm in adding the buttons for those Ctrl shortcuts. Of course, this is just a suggestion and it could be compromised to make the best choice. Besides that, this is actually an interface suggestion and I don't see why you would bother adding Ctrl shortcuts to the conversation. Right-click has something to do with interface, but I don't really see the point of putting Ctrl shortcuts here.

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I and any minimally smart UI programer would bother adding key combinations, yes. Combinations are part of the User Interface.
You should think that adding too many buttons to a GUI scares people. And I don't think it's necessary to add a specific button for this rather obscure feature. It's not fundamental and will be rarely used anyway. Those who would ever want to use it, will discover there are ways to achieve it whether using the context menu or the key combination.

I understand your points, but still it doesn't make sense to bloat the interface with buttons. I bet for adding only those that are really needed.

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Typical users won't use the ungroup feature more than maybe once a month if ever, trust me

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I don't think so. Girls that spend most of theri time IMing would have multiple cons at the same time and they would, most likely, ungroup the tab to avoid changing the tab very often. Besides that, if you have a key combination and you don't have any button for it, many would not know that there is really one. Of course, there is the right-click thing, but it is not noticable enough for a user, trust me.

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Oh dear... you can do both.

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So, have you got my point yet? I think that it is very straight forward. C'mon, admit it. =_=a

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There should be an option to close all tabs at once, I'm not discussing that. I'm just discussing it _should not_ be another close button. Better than that a key combo like Ctrl-Esc. Sure, typical users don't really know much about combos, but they don't have any option to close all coversations anyway, except maybe for closing or logging out Messenger. Adding another close button will be more a problem than a solution.

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I've said this and I will say it again, then. Typical users won't know Ctrl+Esc. OK, think about it, majority of Plus!'s users are not registerred to the forums and won't bother finding every shortcuts. Most teen agers, at least the ones I know, don't even know many options in Plus! because they don't bother looking for the ones that are not visualized. My friend does not know that there are those "Hello", "My patience has its limit...", and so on sounds untill 3.5 comes. Most of them are worse.

I have actually got a better idea, putting the close button at the right of each tab, for closing the specific tab.

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I and any minimally smart UI programer would bother adding key combinations, yes. Combinations are part of the User Interface.
You should think that adding too many buttons to a GUI scares people. And I don't think it's necessary to add a specific button for this rather obscure feature. It's not fundamental and will be rarely used anyway. Those who would ever want to use it, will discover there are ways to achieve it whether using the context menu or the key combination.

I understand your points, but still it doesn't make sense to bloat the interface with buttons. I bet for adding only those that are really needed.

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From this, I can pretty much guess that you are most likely around the 30+ users. Sorry if this is wrong. Well, sir, then you havn't known that most, I mean 80% would not know those shortcuts and would not try to use them. Besides that, I still can't see how 3-4 small buttons can be such "bloats". >.> Seriously, it takes even less space than the DP frame. I have tried to tell you how useful ungroup buttons are, though you still don't understand it. Well... maybe it talking to two people (or more) at the same time is very rare for you, but not for those who spend their time to CHAT, yes, those girls. I actually think that people would like tab features with a new tab button, a close tab button, and an ungroup tab button than having only the navigation arrow. They would be "Shouldn't there be buttons for these shortcuts? My friends won't even know these shortcuts. Oh well, gotta tell them." While, if you have those buttons, they would probably be like "Oh, we can also do these stuffs. Cool, this is actually handy. I thought that there would only be tabs."

If you hate those buttons so much, there could be, in preference, options to disable those buttons, though I actually find them very useful in many situations.