Shoutbox

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Originally posted by traxor

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Originally posted by MC Inferno
So you wont vote BNP then?

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That has nothing to do with anybody here, but if you must know, I'm Labour.

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Good man.

I don't agree that Muslim women should even be asked if they take off their veil, its part of their religion, its not like somebody wearing a motorcylce helmet like people keep comparing it to, because its part of what they believe in and part of their lifestyle. And so what if its a tradition that has come from however many hundred years ago from another country, they should take pride that they've held onto part of their culture and religion.. not like Christians who changed the Old Testiment so they could drink alcohol, because it did state that alcohol was prohibited.
What people don't come to realise is that their are some similarities between Islam and Christianity.. for example in Islam its prohibited to eat any meat from a pig, it also states that in the Bible! Leviticus chapter 11, verse 8, .....regarding swine it says, "of their flesh (of the swine) shall you not eat, and of their carcass you shall not touch; they are unclean to you." What I'm getting at is that Islam always gets heightened to be 'extreme' and what not by how they dress, what they don't eat etc.. but they're only following what their religion teaches and how it guides them. Maybe it would also say in the Bible to dress modestly I'm not sure I havn't researched into it but that's all they're doing, they're protecting themselves and having respect for themselves by choosing not to flaunt their bods off. It's become such a big issue when in reality it really is causing no-one any harm, but Jack Straw should respect people's beliefs and choices instead of suggesting they change their values for his happiness and comfort. It's stupid to say Britain accepts cultures and we're multicultural and what not when the majority of society feel so strongly against something so trivial as the veil. People keep saying 'they've come to OUR country, THEY should adapt to US' but then that's just going against any form of multiculturalism altogether. And have you ever thought that maybe these women feel uncomfortable and insecure when having to speak to women who reveal their bodies as in show their cleavage and legs? As someone said before its a minority of Muslim women who choose to wear the veil, the majority wear hijab which is the head scarf which covers the hair and shoulder region. So I don't think it should have been dramatised as much as it has.

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Originally posted by elzz
I don't agree that Muslim women should even be asked if they take off their veil, its part of their religion, its not like somebody wearing a motorcylce helmet like people keep comparing it to, because its part of what they believe in and part of their lifestyle.

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its not the fact thats the bicycle helmet is religion, its the fact that the helmet covers the face. the veil covers the face.... thus presenting a security threat in places such as banks...

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Originally posted by elzz
It's become such a big issue when in reality it really is causing no-one any harm, but Jack Straw should respect people's beliefs and choices instead of suggesting they change their values for his happiness and comfort. It's stupid to say Britain accepts cultures and we're multicultural and what not when the majority of society feel so strongly against something so trivial as the veil.

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multiculturalism will only work if both cultures are prepared to negotiate and compromise IMO.

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Originally posted by elzz
People keep saying 'they've come to OUR country, THEY should adapt to US' but then that's just going against any form of multiculturalism altogether.

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if we go to THEIR country WE have to adapt to THEM... e.g. not wearing swimming costumes in public etc etc... i personally would hate having to be fully clothed in sweltering heat, but would comply because its their country. much like i feel people with veils should comply in this country.

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Originally posted by elzz
As someone said before its a minority of Muslim women who choose to wear the veil, the majority wear hijab which is the head scarf which covers the hair and shoulder region. So I don't think it should have been dramatised as much as it has.

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everything is dramatised now days... the pope referenced some ancient text saying something about islam and violence, so 7 churches get burned down and a nun gets killed.... very unviolent

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Originally posted by M73A
Personally i agree with Jack Straw, i would find it rude if someone was wearing one of these veils whilst in a meeting/conference....

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what on earth is rude about wearing them???? o.O

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Originally posted by M73A
i also agree on the comment that 'wearing the veils seperates muslims from everyone else' (or something along those lines). The veils do not help a multicultural comunity blend and get along.

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How do they not help?

If you speak of a 'multicultural community' it means that in this community people are from multiple cultures. If eveybody wears the exact same thing, behaves the same way, say the same thing, etc you don't have a multicultural community at all.

Also, why is it that everybody always talks about veils as if those people are the only people with the only religion which has some visible elements.

If veils are not allowed, so must be crosses, white border from the priest, etc... Heck, ANY other clothing or ornament which has even the slightest reference to some religion or culture (eg: piercing, tattoos, etc...).

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Originally posted by M73A
a cross is not blocking/hiding the whole face, also... liek bluewater, you cant wear a hood... bt you can wear a full on face mask basically.

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Sorry, but the argument of "we can't see their face" has no ground at all.

Tbh, there are thousands, maybe millions of meetings done each day over phones, etc. So are all those meetings bad, doomed to fail, etc?

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Originally posted by M73A
why does showing their religion have to be in the form of hiding their identity.

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What has that got to do with it other than you not understanding that specific religion and thus wanna forbid it (discrimination comes to mind here).

Why are chirstians baptised? Why do certain people not wear cloths? Why do some people 'mangle' their body (ear-rings)?, etc

Also, I'm not an expert on the religions where women are veiled, but there are perfect reasons for it in their religion. Why should they be forbidden to practice their religion???

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Originally posted by M73A
you said a christian wears a cross... (im not pro that either...) but it doesn't hide their face, or make things awkward

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They might find christian practices ackward too. If you find something ackward that's your problem, not theirs.

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Originally posted by M73A
im not sayign they should give up their religion or anythin

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Actually you do say they should give up their religion if you wanna forbid it!

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Originally posted by M73A
its not just the veil though, its that multiculturalism is becoming harder, and the veil isnt helping muslims blend in.

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so you want a multicultural society where everybody wears and does the same? Sorry, but that is not multicultural at all, that's saying "adapt or get away", aka serious discriminating.

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Originally posted by Time
Also, in some Arabic countries they are rarely worn so implying it is a custom they brought with them is pretty stupid.

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using that as an argument is pretty stupid to. If someone is wearing a veil it is her custom to do.

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Originally posted by Time
Next, recently a BBC newsreader was disciplined for wearing a crucifix whilst presenting the news because it might offend Muslims etc. - tell me how that is fair.

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Because a newsreader has a job to be neutral as possible and bring the news as facts without showing any biased elements.

This is exactly the same when a newsreader would wear the insigna of his political party, or when he starts to give personal comments on the news facts.

A meeting is totally different than a news program too. In a meeting/discussion you obviously belong to a certain group/party/side.

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Originally posted by traxor
What I'm saying is, why should we have to adapt when THEY chose to come HERE?!

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Sorry, but tell me how we do or should adapt then? What adaptation do they demand we take? None!

Ok, granted, there is one adaptation you need todo: having respect for a fellow human being who is different than you or has different believes.

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Originally posted by traxor
Well they should see England for what it is now rather than what it used to be, in the few years their opportunities will decrease and they'll be forced to do stuff against their religion, it's what will happen, they have to obide by our laws if they're in our country. They can't come to our country expecting to bring their laws over here and say "this is a muslim area, stay out" (which is exactly what a heckler said at one of Jack Straw's speeches. How does that heckler have the right to say that, it's not their area, it's the governments area?!

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Serious generalizations you do here and typically (willingly or not, dunno) extreme right-winged talking.

Not only do they obey the rules, they also will always have opportunities which do not go against their believes. Obvioulsy if they don't agree with something (eg: working in a slaughter house or whatever (just some random example)) then they don't do it, simple as that.

Also, of course there are always people who go against the law, that is nothing specific to muslim people, let alone veil wearing women.

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Originally posted by FrozenDaggers
Everyone has a right to wear what the hell you want. At the end of the day it's part of a religion. Wearing a Christian cross isn't banned, that's showing the religion. Wearing a veil is just a Muslim way of showing their religion.


This annoys me. *flies away*

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I totally agree

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Originally posted by Chrono
It's a part of their culture/religion/whatever. You just cant go against them, it's stupid. They can wear whatever they want.. i agree that for must of us it's weird, but it's the way they see the world. you cant expect them to stop doing it cause we dont like it. It's as if at some point they decided that underwear is bad and expected us to stop wearing them too (it's a silly example but you get the idea).

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I totally agree


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Personally I find it very offensive that people even consider forbidding veils or would even questionning wearing them; it is their believe and they have the right to practice their believe.

I'm very shocked reading certain comments in this thread. On the other hand, it is actually also no surprise when I think about some past (and even current) events on the Plus! IRC channels where a certain group of people comming from a specific country are branded by definition loosers/crap/scum/etc...


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Rest of replies will follof when I'm at home..

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
    quoteriginally posted by M73A
    Personally i agree with Jack Straw, i would find it rude if someone was wearing one of these veils whilst in a meeting/conference....

what on earth is rude about wearing them???? o.O

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i personally like to see peoples expressions, and their reactions, and can put a face to a voice... like my friends... say my friend is called ben... i relate things to him and think 'what does he look like his anme is? he looks like a ben.. i personally would find it very hard trying to distinguish one veiled person from another...

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
    quoteriginally posted by M73A
    i also agree on the comment that 'wearing the veils seperates muslims from everyone else' (or something along those lines). The veils do not help a multicultural comunity blend and get along.

How do they not help?

If you speak of a 'multicultural community' it means that in this community people are from multiple cultures. If eveybody wears the exact same thing, behaves the same way, say the same thing, etc you don't have a multicultural community at all.

Also, why is it that everybody always talks about veils as if those people are the only people with the only religion which has some visible elements.

If veils are not allowed, so must be crosses, white border from the priest, etc... Heck, ANY other clothing or ornament which has even the slightest reference to some religion or culture (eg: piercing, tattoos, etc...).

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it doesnt help because it doesn't exactely encourage the other cultures to mix with them.... so i don't see it as multicultural... ok many cultures may live in one area.. but if they are all separated (even in school im starting to noticed groups of people... all of the same race)

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
    quoteriginally posted by M73A
    you said a christian wears a cross... (im not pro that either...) but it doesn't hide their face, or make things awkward

They might find christian practices ackward too. If you find something ackward that's your problem, not theirs.

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so much stuff is found to be offensive now days, that one really gets my goat.. like now your now allowed to be patriotic and have a flag displayed... ytf have they got a problem with a flag, if anything i should have the right to be patriotic... if they have a problem with it then thats their problem... but no, id soon have some policemen telling me to take it down or whatever...

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
    quoteriginally posted by M73A
    im not sayign they should give up their religion or anythin

Actually you do say they should give up their religion if you wanna forbid it!

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thats completely not what im trying to say, hey, be islam, but why is the veil required? we have to abide by their dress codes... whats wrong with it being the other way round? the only problem is there is no religious reason to have certain garments banned in the u.k.

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
    quoteriginally posted by M73A
    its not just the veil though, its that multiculturalism is becoming harder, and the veil isnt helping muslims blend in.

so you want a multicultural society where everybody wears and does the same? Sorry, but that is not multicultural at all, that's saying "adapt or get away", aka serious discriminating.

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as i said before, some people may find the veils intimidating (just because of the whole terrorism thing always being in the media)... thus making it harder for all of the cultures to interact. ok i dont like the way some other cultures act -little street rats- but thats not what the thread is to discuss....

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
I'm very shocked reading certain comments in this thread

Personally I find it very offensive that people even consider forbidding veils or would even questionning wearing them; it is their believe and they have the right to practice their believe.

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im sorry your offended by the discussion but its definitely a controvertial topic.

not ment to be offensive but upon reading it, it my come across as it: im not part of any religion, i dont believe in any religion either... i just think that people should just be polite to eachother and there would not be any problems.... no religions - no terrorism.

sorry, but thats how my head works... i know its bull**** but thats how my life has made me think. i partly reated this thread because i would like to be more educated about such subjects, but i always come across as having a rant. >.<

If its a meeting, id atleast want to see the persons eyes if not the entire face (for facial expressions). At other times, i dont mind anyone wearing veils (unless it is a situation where i need to know where they are looking/their expressions)

Who ever wears clothes like that here atleast keeps their eyes open. Other than that the entire body is covered. Or mabbe thats just because they are walking on the road?