Shoutbox

quote:

---

Originally posted by traxor
That's wrong, a lot of bones grow back. Well no it's not coincidence, once again it's evolution. The rib-cage protects the vital-organs, even the lowest rib is protecting something.

---

Only the lower ribs grow back in total, the other bones only 'regenerate'. So if you lost your lower rib, it regrows, if you lose a toe, it's gone
Why don't the second lowest ribs grow back?

quote:

---

Originally posted by traxor
Why give somebody a choice of good or evil, why not completely eradicate evil and make a world live in harmony, instead of the world we live in today, with terrorism, genocide etc.

---

So we would not be like drones. A father doesn't want his son to follow him like a drone, but wan't him to give freedom... (you seperated my statement in two parts)

quote:

---

Originally posted by traxor
I want my son or daughter to believe in what they want, I don't want them to hate all religions, I just want them to be rational in what they say, think and do. If they want to be catholic, they can be that if they want, but I'd hope they're not catholic, as with most people if they have the choice they wouldn't have any religion! That's why I think it's wrong to baptise children at such an early age, they have no choice in the matter whatsoever.

---

I agree with you on that, it's one of the points I don't like about catholics (along with the maria worshipping) Babies don't have a choice whatsoever... I'm not going to baptise my children as babies. My parents didn't either. It was my own desicion

quote:

---

Originally posted by traxor
(...) an "entity" who has always been (always, wait a second... he had to have came from somewhere hasn't he? Just at one point there and another not there, that doesn't make sense)

---

Do you understand eternity? no beginning, no end? I don't quite get it too... but who says God had to come from somewhere? (don't quote me on this one, I don't understand eternity either)

quote:

---

Originally posted by traxor
So what you're saying what is logical, is the fact that an "entity" who has always been there  to have created everything including man... That dinosaurs etc. never did exist (as we know for a fact they never lived when humans existed) and that humans came first, nothing else...

---

Why didn't dinosaurs live with humans? what facts? The geological column? Carbon dating? both proven to be wrong
The geological column is not the same at every point, At some places in the world the're missing some layers, meaning the era wouldn't have existed at that place...
Carbon dating is even more wrong, it is only accurate for less than 14.000 years, and if the earth's CO2 levels remained constant troughout that time. Tests showed out that a 25 year old carcass whas misdated at few thousand years. The skin of a mamoth was dated a few thousand years older/younger than it's bones...
It's all described in the videos (especialy Seminar 4)
If you have the time, please do...

quote:

---

Originally posted by traxor
It's a hell of a lot more logical to believe in a theory of evolution rather than a theory of creation. Considering the evidence we have that evolution has existed and still does exist, fossils, yet evolving species etc. We're evolving all the time, no matter what... From generation to generation we're evolving, both mentally and physically... We're becoming cleverer and we're also adapting to the ever-changing environment.

---

Fossils are not prove of evolution, you can not say that fossil evolved into another species... You weren't there, you don't know if it had any children...
You have evolution and evolution, many people say animals are evolving, so evolution is true.
But the're different kinds of evolution, I'll use two of them, macro and micro evolution. Macro evolution is from one specie of animal, to another specie of animal. Micro evolution is from kind of animal to another kind of animal, within the same species. the latter one is true, no doubt... You have thousands different kinds of dogs, and all those dogs adapt to their surroundings. I agree
But then many people say that people evolved from monkeys. Monkeys and humans are totally different species and cannot bread which eachother (that would be another argument against evolution, how would the new evoluted specie breed?)

quote:

---

Originally posted by traxor
Disagree with me all you want, but religion is simply a belief, it is not fact. There is no proof that there was a God, or that the creation story was real, apart from a book wrote 8000 years ago (we know that the world is billions of years old) by some Jewish people. How did somebody 8000 years ago know what happened all of those billions of years ago? They couldn't, simply because stories cannot be passed on that long without modification.

---

I already said it before, Religion is a belief, I don't disagree with you on that. How do you know the earth is billions of years old? carbon dating? Several arguments that the earth can not be billions of years old (also in the vids)

quote:

---

Originally posted by traxor
It's the same issue with the new testaments, the gospels were not actually written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John... They were written in around 400-500AC by people who had been told the stories, by people who'd actually learnt how to write. Through the years that story has changed and changed simply because somebody had been told the story and added something to it, the person then told another the story exagerrating it even more so and so on and so forth. Imagine the constant exagerration from person to person over A BILLION YEARS. Nobody would even be able to remember that even if we were created, which we weren't.

---

Where you there? wasn't it rewritten? copied... They knew how to write even before Jesus' birth...
"which we weren't", that's open for discussion, it's not a fact...

quote:

---

Originally posted by traxor
What you're saying is completely ludacris, and is an argument that I'd expect somebody from the Vatican to say to me, yet I've always got a valid argument to that, with proof that there was life BEFORE we existed, and that it couldn't have been created by God... We couldn't have been created by God at least, as we'd all be dead right now, just as the same fat the dinosaurs had before mother nature sorted herself out again.

---

Please give me the proof that life existed BEFORE us, as you say...

---

-edit- fluffy_lobster is a super n00b (saw this when I posted.. weird )

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shondoit
btw, how do you add your attachment as an image in the post?

---

[img][attachment][/img]

Okay, thx
Thought it was [img]attachment[/img] but it wasn't working. needed the brackets...

Shondoit: you claim the universe has a creator, right? Who created this creator? I assume your response to that will be that the creator was always there? Well in that case, why do we need a creator?

If you are allowed to come to the conclusion that this creator always existed, then suddenly the need for there to be a creator in order for this universe to come to existence becomes irrelevant. After all, if God could just "always be there", who's to say the universe couldn't "always be there" in its "tremendously dense and hot state about 13.7 billion years ago" (source).

The Creator was always there...
Why do we need a creator? That's the same as asking why does a watch need a creator? If the creator didn't make the watch, it would not exist. this argument is not flawless, because you could say that the universe always existed, without a creator (but what about the Second law of thermodynamics? If it existed billions of years? all energy would be spread throughout the universe, instead of clutter together...)

When I read that Wiki article, the first thing I notice is: "the Big Bang is the scientific theory (...)"
A theory, not a fact...

---

I don't really have the time now, as I'm quite busy with school 'n stuff. But if I have the time, I'll post some arguments that are covered in the videos...
(perhaps one or two at a time...)

I consider myself agnostic and irreligious.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shondoit
Why do we need a creator? That's the same as asking why does a watch need a creator? If the creator didn't make the watch, it would not exist.

---

Your argument doesn't cover the fact that the watch maker was created by his parents.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shondoit
When I read that Wiki article, the first thing I notice is: "the Big Bang is the scientific theory (...)"
A theory, not a fact...

---

No one is disagreeing with you there.

No it does not...

But a Deity is something totally different then a watchmaker.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shondoit
But a Deity is something totally different then a watchmaker.

---

Then why use the analogy?


Going back to a previous post...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shondoit
Only the lower ribs grow back in total, the other bones only 'regenerate'. So if you lost your lower rib, it regrows, if you lose a toe, it's gone
Why don't the second lowest ribs grow back?

---

You're using this as an argument to say Evolution is wrong yet God is right.  It's a rib growing back... so what? That doesn't make any religious opinion right nor wrong.

quote:

---

Originally posted by haydn

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shondoit
But a Deity is something totally different then a watchmaker.

---

Then why use the analogy?

---

Because almost everything has a creator... becuase you don't know him doesn't mean he doesn't exist...

quote:

---

Originally posted by haydn
Going back to a previous post...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Shondoit
Only the lower ribs grow back in total, the other bones only 'regenerate'. So if you lost your lower rib, it regrows, if you lose a toe, it's gone
Why don't the second lowest ribs grow back?

---

You're using this as an argument to say Evolution is wrong yet God is right.  It's a rib growing back... so what? That doesn't make any religious opinion right nor wrong.

---

I didn't say it was proof for religion. I only state that it's interresting only the lowest ribs grow back, the one God created Eve from, so it says in the Bible

Now, you may believe it or not. But fact is that they regrow, up to you to decide why only those regrow

I usually like taking part in these discussions, unfortunatly I missed this post (oops)...

I'm definetly Athiest and some other stuff that I really cant be bothered looking up to find out what.

The first thing you have to understand is what the difference between science and religion are:
- Religion is making up stories and then looking for evidence
- Science is collecting evidence and piecing stories together to fit the evidence.

There is a clear difference here, especially in the fact that religions usually shape the evidence to their needs.

A main point that seems to be in everyones arguments is "What created the creator (or big-bang, etc)?". Well, being human, it's fairly complicated for us to understand infinity. The main way I stop myself from getting confused is like this:

Take a piece of graph paper, and plot the graph y = x^2 + 1. Where does it cross the x axis? No where. No matter how far on you go, either tending to positive or negative infinity, the graph will never touch or end up below the x axis.

It's the same for the point before the beginning. Whatever "created" (and I use the term loosely) us existed forever. Now, if you believe in the big bang it's easy enough to say "Well, due to the laws of relativity time probably didn't actually exist until after the start of the big bang" which confuses the issue even further, but meh. It actually makes sense to me, in a way.

And as for evolution, evolution is waaay more logical than "omfg we appeared because someone made us!".

My prime example is the evolution of small bacteria into plant and animal life. Most people say, "well how the hell could I have evolved from a plant?". The answer is fairly simple.

In the beginning you have two types of cell: Plant Cells and Bacterial Cells. Plant Cells as most people know, take in CO2 and produce Oxygen. Bacterial Cells (at the time) simply used Glucose and ATP <-> ADP + Pi as a form of energy (glycolysis). This produced minor amounts of CO2 (for the plants). Suddenly, once there was enough Oxygen available, we begin to see the evolution of aerobic respiration, which produces 19 times more energy than glycolysis alone, (via Krebs Cycle and the Cytochrome System), and the beginning of life as we know it begins.

I see no mention of this in the holy book of any religion, but you'll see it in lots of science textbooks.

PS. The thing about the lower rib is because the lower rib directly protects the diaphragm, which if damaged is pretty damned bad. (You won't be able to breathe) It's also much more sensitive than the other organs, the heart and lungs could survive minor forces on them, the diaphragm wouldn't be so lucky.