Shoutbox

So Patchou landed the big deal with the Messenger skinning feature. Many professional designers and graphic artists are starting to have brilliant ideas, some of them are adapting older "raw" dll-modding skins now in .plsk format, whereas others start from scratch, like I did. But there's also coming up a numerous amount of creators taking code and technics, and adapting them for their needs and ideas - the (may no one feel offended) so-called skin-kiddies.

It is no secret that Apple Live Messenger was and is one of the most appreciated and indeed the best-rated skin in the whole skins database. Therefore it's not surprising that some users who want to start their own skin, take my (and Bram's) skin as basis for their own creations. I can name at least 3 skins that are either based partially or entirely on Apple Live Messenger. These are:

• Nao Messenger   by Miamoto
  
• Longhorn Theme Skin   by coolzee
  
• Dheano Live Messenger   by dheano

Now, let's have a look at the different stadiums of code copying.

• Nao Messenger
  This skin is completely based on Apple Live Messenger. Please download the current version, 3.2, from the Skins database. Inspect the extracted folder: you'll find the same file names, the same structure, the same technics, the same SkinInfo layout. Please check now the file called 1075.png. What do you see? Correct: the logo of Apple Live Messenger. Go over to 597.png, what is in there? Right, the same buddies as in Apple Live Messenger. Or just look at the emoticons in 412.png and 414.png, same result there. 640.png is my 640.png, just colorized in green. Or 20066.png: a (blue) Apple icon.
  
  
• Longhorn Theme Skin
  This skin is a development not based on Apple Live Messenger. Nevertheless, just have a quick look at the extracted folder, and check the resources.dll, by opening its properties. What do you see? Here's what you will see. No further comment needed.
  
  
• Dheano Live Messenger
  This is again a skin completely based on ALM. With this one, I have to add the information that dheano added me on messenger, and talked to me about it. I told him I'd be happy if he changed the graphics and not just the colors, and he agreed. So the screenshot you see in the thread liked above is old. At least he will give "based on" credits.

I know Messenger Skinning is a public domain and everybody can do or let what he or she likes to, and I know some of the graphics in Apple Live Messenger are not really much work or cannot be protected because they are not worth. But nevertheless, unlike in scripting where you have to develop your own style of coding, in skinning I guess that there will by much cloning, copying, and even faking soon. The questions I want to have cleared up are: What is protectworthy? How much is a new skinner allowed to copy from an existing creation? How much works does he/she have to put in it, to express their own design instead of reusing others' work? What about the skins database? Should there be a limit of unique-level for each skin to be accepted? What about licensing? Can licenses be applied to skins, such as GPL (allowing modifications is they are published), or a different one, permitting use, but forbiding integration into other skins? Surely it's promotion for a skinner to see his work in many other skins being adopted, but in my opinion, these questions should be (1) discussed, (2) solved, (3) put into written form, and (4) being published in such a prominent place that everybody has to cope with them when developing a skin.

I'd love to hear your opinions and to start a lively discussion.
Regards,

You are right ...

All what I think about this you know it already mynetx... but I'm going to tell it to everybody here...

1. preventing copy is just impossible and respect is just a matter of education...
2. I support what Dheano did... cause I think is the only way of new skinners and old skinners can coexist... he isn't coping your skin but basing his skin in yours... and what I expect of him... is a completly different graphical release and a thank to you somewhere in his skin....
3. I hate people that takes ideas, graphics or code without asking... and after that they don't thank anybody neither...
4. I think some rules must be applied to DB submits... Nao Messenger shouldn't be accepted there for now...
5. Some respect and partnership must be considerated before modifying and submitting a idea/skin...

if we don't control this now... this is going to be out of control in a few month when most of the ww people had updated MP!L to 4.5...

I don't think much more needs to be said. Most important stuff is already said by mynetx and warmth.


However, don't forget that skinning is much stricter "coding" than scripting. Indeed, with scripting each programmer has his own style and you often can program a function in more than one way. With skinning you can't, it is much stricter and something can often only be done in one way. I don't see this as "stealing" if more people are using a certain same style to color their contactlist background or whatever.

However, if the "stealing" is done in such an obvious way like in the Nao Messenger skin, then yes, it should be discouraged and the author should have more respect and at least ask for permission to use the existing graphics. But, you can't protect yourself from this. What can be done is refusing such skins in the database, which I would totally agree with in this case.

As an author of a skin, what you can do is report the skin you think has stolen stuff from your original skin, and contact its author to tell him/her that he/she need permission from you to use your graphics.

Bah, I've been "skinning" on and off for over 4 years now, and I have dealt with this enough to know that unless it's completely a blatant rip, it's best to let it go.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, goes the saying, and it really is. I have to be honest, sometimes some people irk me and then I say something to vent and let it go, but really, I saw this topic coming up sometime in the future, when I first heard of the skinning feature and the same thing when the scripting feature was released.

For example, mynetx, I essentially re wrote most of your Apple Live Messenger, in its early stages, but I really didn't expect much in return.

It's the joy of helping someone else and seeing your work replicated as to why I do it. Of course, it goes with saying, you are entitled to your own view on things and as fas as licensing goes, there is something called "Intellectual Property Right", which means that you own whatever you make. You are entitled to exercise that right, just as long as you don't do it after waiving it.

I would be careful about what you call Intellectual Property though as even though you have made a modification/fabrication of a skin, the base is still Microsoft's so if at all, you are considering doing something of that sort, I urge you to do proper research.

Thanks for your honest words, ipab. As for your rewriting of the code, I'm very thankful for it, and you will get your credits as soon as I got some time to include an Options pane. In fact, I did not say I'd impose licensing upon my creations, I just added the idea in the discussion to be considered.

quote:

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Originally posted by mynetx
In fact, I did not say I'd impose licensing upon my creations, I just added the idea in the discussion to be considered.

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I was merely remarking upon the fact that you can .

quote:

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
However, if the "stealing" is done in such an obvious way like in the Nao Messenger skin, then yes, it should be discouraged and the author should have more respect and at least ask for permission to use the existing graphics. But, you can't protect yourself from this. What can be done is refusing such skins in the database, which I would totally agree with in this case.

As an author of a skin, what you can do is report the skin you think has stolen stuff from your original skin, and contact its author to tell him/her that he/she need permission from you to use your graphics.

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Agreed, although, imho, a report button could be added to report plagiarism...

About idea copying, I don't think there is a problem with it unless it includes using images or code without the original author's permission...

Well, Miamoto didn't have my permission. And nobody urged coolzee to use my dll, and just edit its resources (but in fact, I don't bother whether he's using it).

Well, you could comment that in your skin's code