Shoutbox

Skin developers who want to "hide" their files can use resource DLL libraries, it's entirely supported by the system.

That being said, I understand your point and we had similar discussions when scripts were introduced. It's the nature of this work: many people will probably just prefer modifying an existing skin rather than creating a new one from scratch. As ipab said, "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery". However, this kind of copy won't be blindly tolerated in the official skin db, like it is not tolerated in the scripts db. As a general rule, people should always credit others when appropriate. If they just copied your stuff and don't mention your name anywhere, you have the right to complain and the skin could be removed from the db as a consequence. It's generally better to contact the other skin develoepr directly as more than often, this kind of problem can be resolved in a more appropriate way like that.

I'm the first one to recommend people to check existing skins and scripts to learn how to do it. Many of you already did that while beta testing and this will never change. Still, you are entitled to some recognition so if you have a specific problem with someone, let me know (or actually, let MenthiX know as he's in charge of the db).

It's pretty easy to spot a rip off, I see many of the Vista skins stealing uifile code from Vista Live Messenger.

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Originally posted by absorbation
It's pretty easy to spot a rip off, I see many of the Vista skins stealing uifile code from Vista Live Messenger.

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and not a credit to me or stian

Well, thats ok, because once I update that skin it won't really matter too much as I'll improve it a lot more and the downloads will say it all.


random side note: woo over 100,000 downloads for Ev0

I also did not know about the dll system, I'll have to check that out, thanks patch.

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Originally posted by Willz
I also did not know about the dll system, I'll have to check that out, thanks patch.

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Willz maybe you should check this Patchou's reply to [Help] How to edit "about"

I didn't respond earlier because i wanted to hear the opinions from others around this first. So here i go...


First comments on the three you reported:

• Nao Messenger
  Miamoto mailed me after you created this thread. First a mail with a request to remove his skin from the db completely. But before i got around reading it i got a new mail with a v3.3 (apparently the last version we'll see from Nao ) which is on the DB now. I trust you guys have contact and can work it out together.
  
• Longhorn Theme skin
  Received an update from coolzee too (online on db), the problem you mention with the .dll seems fixed.
  
• Dheano Live Messenger
  Isn't submitted to the db yet, but looks like you guys worked it out already .

Skin-kiddies isn't a fair term to use, there's nothing wrong with learning by example as long as people keep on reading the documentation too. But, you do have a point in the skins you mentioned where people take your graphics directly without asking.

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Originally posted by mynetx
What is protectworthy? How much is a skinner allowed to copy from an existing creation?

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• Taking images or DLLs from other skins without permission is definitely not allowed. For images i mean original images that you created, not simple gradients, images you found on the web or images based on the interface of an existing application (like vista icons for example).
  
• Also not allowed is taking complete style/definition files. I say complete, because like Cookie said style/definition files have a strict format. Style/definition are bound to look the same, even while the skins are visually completely different.
  
• Names should be original to avoid confusion, like Nathan changed the names of his script to Ribbon Messenger to avoid confusion with the Office07 skin. I think this covers what you name faking?
  
• Using the same file structure is completely ok .
  
• As for stealing ideas... a skin based on an existing application/OS/brand is never considered an original idea, unless you are the creator of that application/OS/brand. But i will limit how many skins based on the same enter the skins db. For example if another Office based skin gets submitted it will need to significantly better/different to be accepted.

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Originally posted by mynetx
What about the skins database?

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Like Patchou said: "If they just copied your stuff and don't mention your name anywhere, you have the right to complain and the skin could be removed from the db as a consequence. It's generally better to contact the other skin developer directly as more than often, this kind of problem can be resolved in a more appropriate way like that." So if there is an issue: Try to contact the skinner first and work it out (be polite and reasonable), if that doesn't work, contact me (skins@msgpluslive.net). When you contact me, be specific, describe which files are stolen exactly, mynetx did a good job at that in the opening post.

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Originally posted by mynetx
How much works does he/she have to put in it, to express their own design instead of reusing others' work? Should there be a limit of unique-level for each skin to be accepted?

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Unique-level can't be measured. When accepting them in the skins db i'll try to make the best choice and ask Patchou when in doubt. We can't compare all files with every other skins each time. When you think a skin in the db stole your resources/idea, contact me like written above and we'll work it out together.

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Originally posted by mynetx
What about licensing? Can licenses be applied to skins, such as GPL (allowing modifications is they are published), or a different one, permitting use, but forbiding integration into other skins?

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You'll have to study if the license you want to use allows it, i never got into that. Skins are a Messenger Plus! feature and integrated into Windows Live Messenger, that could cause some problems for licenses.

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Originally posted by mynetx
and (4) being published in such a prominent place that everybody has to cope with them when developing a skin.

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Where are you suggesting? I want to avoid pages long rules on /skins/submit/, but maybe somewhere else?

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Originally posted by warmth
4. I think some rules must be applied to DB submits... Nao Messenger shouldn't be accepted there for now...

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Nao Messenger looked fine on inspection. I simply can't compare all the files with all other skins all the time. From the outside Nao looked original. This is why i'll partly rely on reports from other skinners.

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Originally posted by Voldemort
a report button could be added to report plagiarism

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I'll consider that for the next skins db, for now email works fine.



BTW: Was this posted in beta for a specific reason? It's probably better in the regular skinning forum so other skinners can read/contribute too.

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Originally posted by MenthiX
Was this posted in beta for a specific reason? It's probably better in the regular skinning forum so other skinners can read/contribute too.

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I'll contact a moderator to move it there, but I wanted to header the opinions of the more advanced crew before.

Regards,

i agree that stealing other ideas is wrong, me personally i admit ive copied code from other skins and adapted it to learn how to do a certain function, also i used the images from nightfal for the dashboard, toolbar and header of contact list and chat toolbar the reason i did this and then turned them a complete solid colour is so i could get the exact right image dimensions for the graphic none of those original graphics are there now as they were fully customised to look the way i wanted them it literally was just for getting the correct dimensions.

now i dont think thats stealing, however if that is considered stealing then i will of coure give credit to vikke and apologise after all im not going out of my way to steal stuff im trying to be completely original wherever possible, in terms of my graphics im useless at graphic design most of the images i made are gradients or plain colour images, i now get jason (freak544) to do the majority of our skins graphics as he is far better at it than me, i do more of the coding side now but we do try to share the coding work as evenly as possible.

stuart dimensions aren't a restriction for those sort of images

I am sure I read a (few) post(s) on here saying to people somthing like "look at a skin someone else made and adapt it to make your own skin"

Some people may of read and thought it ment "take the skin and edit the files to make a skin" where as I read it and though "Look at someones skin get the image dimentions or search the rescource files and also look at the definitons files compare them with the originals to see how they made the changes"

Looking at other skins is good to learn but just changing the images and names is that skin to make it look yours is wrong

Yeah I am not as good at coding as stuart but I help where I can and we ave given both permission to edit the skin pack as we are "both" making it

When this whole skinning thing got released I thought "people will edit other peoples skins" and I feel this is ok if your learning then going to make your own skin not just edit it

There are various programs that can be used to compare files like "AtpDiff" i use to compare the definiton and style files to see wats been changed as well as using tutorials and documentation to work things out

I read most of the documentation before starting my first skin and its alot of reading but helped alot

Well this is my input into the discussion for now

Never skinned in my life but I will say is this.

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Originally posted by mynetx

• Nao Messenger   by Miamoto
  
• Longhorn Theme Skin   by coolzee
  
• Dheano Live Messenger   by dheano

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You have the names of authors. I have no proof that this is correct. Somebody can download it, put it on a site that isnt big in the IM world (ie. not mess.be or w.e) and go, look what I did. They'l probably get nicked by some, but with others it'll go unoticed.

Theres not much diffrence. If its open source, expect it to be copied. Not moving onto my music again but I will use it as an example because this is what I specalise in. If somebody was jacking my lyrics I'd be mad and I copyright them all, but in actual fact, theres nothing really I can do. I cant see myself in a court case tbh.