Shoutbox

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Originally posted by Menthix

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Originally posted by breath
I will also point out that you agreed with that in the Microsoft’s Terms of Use. Naturally if you pressed I agree when you registered, else you couldn't register.

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The terms I agreed with when I registered are not the terms they are using now. Hence:

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Originally posted by Menthix
but months later Microsoft "simplifies" their privacy controls and decided that last name I told Microsoft is private is now public information

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Originally posted by breath
Again you are talking about msn 2009. Keeps using it, if you have problems with the beta.

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Using Messenger 2009 won't prevent people in any way from showing up with their full name to their contacts. (like people explained here before)

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The terms are the same, if the terms change you get a new advice and you have to agree again. In them you agree to give some personal information and agree to show them through the network.

"Microsoft collects and uses your personal information to operate and improve its sites and services. etcetcetcetc"

You are talking about the future, I can't see in the future, keeps using msn 2009, if you won't like msn 2011 you will be able to decide to not use it.
Afaik they could even step back, but again Im no farseer.

Don't think I want to defend microsoft or something, i really don't care, just i don't see any issue in this whole thing.

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Originally posted by ICQ

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Originally posted by djdannyp
They're doing it wrong

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i dont think so Danny

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Oh, so how exactly DO you search for people if they don't use their real name?  Facebook is built on people using their real names, that's how you find and identify people, it's not like Myspace where you use a nickname.

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Originally posted by breath
Well if the fact that you can change it to whatever you want = not showing your personal info, isn't enough for you, i presume you shouldn't use it.
I understand it can be a problem for you, but it's something personal.
Don't wanna show your name, change it. Easier seems impossible.

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The point is that the damage (revealed full name) has already been done BEFORE you can put in false information. That is the privacy issue here! Everybody knows you can put in false information, but you shouldn't need to...

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Originally posted by breath
Plus we are talking about a beta, there are flaws and it's supposed to be so, probably some flaws are really huge. If you don't want to take the risk you should never use beta of any softwares, it's normal.

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This has got little todo with it being a beta though. These changes go way deeper than that. This is not just a "little issue" like a shortcut which isn't working or whatever, this is a design/conceptual flaw, a privacy concearn.  And it will probably still be there when WLM goes out of beta (because this has got little todo with the WLM program itself, but all with the underlying protocol and Windows Live concept).

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Originally posted by breath
For me makes no sense to talk about such little issues (cause it's an issue created by a wrong usage)

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Created by wrong usage??? Sorry but that's absolutely twisting it around. The wrong usage here is the need to set false information to work around a privacy issue!!!!

And setting false information goes against one of the main purposes why MS made that change towards showing the full name (besides having things "consistant"): "to fight scams, phising and false info" in the first place... These are not my thoughts, but litteral quotes from one of the MS people.

So, on top of the privacy issue, it is also a design/conceptual flaw; by the way they designed it, they almost force people to do exactly that what they wanted to prevent in the first place...

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Originally posted by breath

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Originally posted by Menthix

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Originally posted by breath
For me makes no sense to talk about such little issues (cause it's an issue created by a wrong usage)

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Wait, what!? Sure, everybody has different priorities. But caused by wrong usage? By who? It is now my fault I filled in my last name because Microsoft told me not to worry and I told Microsoft to not publish the last name, but months later Microsoft "simplifies" their privacy controls and decided that last name I told Microsoft is private is now public information??

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Again you are talking about msn 2009. Keeps using it, if you have problems with the beta.

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No, he actually is not. He is talking about the concept of Wave 4. Even without a WLM beta, this issue would still be there!

Like explained many times before, it does not matter what version YOU use, it matters what OTHER people are using. Again, this has got little todo with the WLM program (and version) itself. It has todo with the underlying protocol, with how Wave 4 handles your personal data.

By using WLM 2009 (or Trillian or any other IM client) you will NOT prevent that somebody using WLM 201x, or any other client compatible with Wave 4, will be able to see your name at some point.

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Originally posted by breath
The terms are the same, if the terms change you get a new advice and you have to agree again. In them you agree to give some personal information and agree to show them through the network.

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Wrong. By agreeing to the Terms you do not agree with showing your personal info throught the network! That is not what the Terms state.

It states that you will agree that MS KNOWS your personal data and can use it to improve their services (eg: collecting data and doing some research in what stuff is used the most or in what way), but NOT that it will be given 'away' to other people.

Also, in the description of the last name field it clearly states "Don't worry, you can choose who sees it". Which is not entirly correct. You can not seperatly decide who sees your last name and who doesn't. And as Menthix has shown clearly, there are always people who can see your full name, there is no setting like "Just Me" for the name!

With wrong usage I mean:
-Accepting a condition where you give booth the approval to collect and show the information that you would like to hide;
"At some Microsoft sites, we ask you to provide personal information, such as your e-mail address, name, home or work address, or telephone number. We may also collect demographic information, such as your ZIP code, age, gender, preferences, interests and favorites. If you choose to make a purchase or sign up for a paid subscription service, we will ask for additional information, such as your credit card number and billing address, which is used to create a Microsoft billing account."

-Put the information you want to hide in a profile you accepted to be showed in the network.
"Microsoft collects and uses your personal information to operate and improve its sites and services. These uses may include providing you with more effective customer service; making the sites or services easier to use by eliminating the need for you to repeatedly enter the same information; performing research and analysis aimed at improving our products, services and technologies; and displaying content and advertising that are customized to your interests and preferences. For more information about the use of information for advertising, see the Display of Advertising section below."



Then you shouldn't have put your real name first/last on your profile agreeing with those terms.

I'm not saying it's your fault, I'm saying that they got your approval to do that when you agreed those terms, so you can't really do nothing else then unregister and stop using it, if you don't like it.

I understand your point, even if you don't seem to be willing to understand my point, but the only thing you can do if you don't like it is to, stop to use it, give them a feedback, and hope for a change that you will like.

I don't see really a lot of difference between Live and the other social networks, I'd say that Live made the microsoft social network really the same of the others, not saying that it's good, it's just really really similar atm.

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Originally posted by breath
With wrong usage I mean:
-Accepting a condition where you give booth the approval to collect and show the information that you would like to hide;
"At some Microsoft sites, we ask you to provide personal information, such as your e-mail address, name, home or work address, or telephone number. We may also collect demographic information, such as your ZIP code, age, gender, preferences, interests and favorites. If you choose to make a purchase or sign up for a paid subscription service, we will ask for additional information, such as your credit card number and billing address, which is used to create a Microsoft billing account."

-Put the information you want to hide in a profile you accepted to be showed in the network.
"Microsoft collects and uses your personal information to operate and improve its sites and services. These uses may include providing you with more effective customer service; making the sites or services easier to use by eliminating the need for you to repeatedly enter the same information; performing research and analysis aimed at improving our products, services and technologies; and displaying content and advertising that are customized to your interests and preferences. For more information about the use of information for advertising, see the Display of Advertising section below."

Then you shouldn't have put your real name first/last on your profile agreeing with those terms.

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Sorry, but no.
Those terms do NOT give MS any approval to show your personal data to others!!! That is not what those Terms explain.

Putting in your real name is NOT wrong usage at all. In fact, those Terms state that such info will only be used 'internally' for research to improve their services and to imrpove YOUR OWN experience (notice the words "you" and "your" in that second paragraph). They do not state, in any way, that your information will be given to others without your approval!

But let's assume you are right and that putting in your real name is wrong usage. Than why on earth do they call those fields "First Name" and "Last Name" and on top of that refer to them across the Live Services as your real name and encourage to put your real name in? And why are those fields also listed together with stuff like "Address", "Street Name", etc, if you weren't suppose to put in your real name? That wouldn't make any sense.

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Originally posted by breath
I'm not saying it's your fault, I'm saying that they got your approval to do that when you agreed those terms

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But that is exactly the point; they did NOT have the approval to give away your personal data to others like that when you agreed to those Terms. Even in this new situation!

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Originally posted by breath
... so you can't really do nothing else then unregister and stop using it, if you don't like it.
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but the only thing you can do if you don't like it is to, stop to use it, give them a feedback, and hope for a change that you will like.

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Which is exactly the same what happened to Facebook before when they did such a similar change.

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Originally posted by breath
I understand your point, even if you don't seem to be willing to understand my point,

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What is your point then?
That it gets similar? We can all agree with that I think.
Take it or leave it? Sure (although the 'damage' is already done for existing users)...

But other than that, there is nothing you've said in reply to our posts (refering to Menthix' and mine) that would justify the move MS has taken in regards to this name issue.

Don't get me wrong though. That they wanted to streamline all the different (nick)name settings and make the shown names consistant across all the Windows Live Services is a good thing. But that would still not justify the move they took though. They decided for us that our names would be visible to others. And that isn't a good thing.

So, the point is that they either needed to give people a proper warning and explanation of what would happen and get their descriptions strait (refering to "you can choose who sees it") BEFORE they made the move. So people could decide to keep using it or leaving it. Or either they need to revert the changes again (although it is now already a bit too late).

If they had a proper setting to hide the name or gave a clear and correct warning before they took the move, then it would of course indeed be up to the people to decide to take it or leave. But now, they didn't gave people any choice and revealed their name to others without any prior approval.

And it is NOT handled under the Terms either. Nor does the Terms automatically give MS any right to do so!

Granted, for many this wont be a problem at all, but there are others for which this is indeed a big problem. And if those people had known this would happen upfront, they would either have changed their real name to something fake (which would actually be the "wrong usage") or they would have cancelled their Windows Live Account, no harm done.

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Originally posted by breath
I don't see really a lot of difference between Live and the other social networks, I'd say that Live made the microsoft social network really the same of the others, not saying that it's good, it's just really really similar atm.

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Yep, it indeed is now. It was one of the reasons why some people use this Windows Live Network but not stuff like Facebook and others btw.

But as said, that is not so much the issue (it is probably part of "going further and don't stand still" anyways). The main outcry is in the way they handled it WITHOUT properly and clearly explaining the consequences it might bring towards some people's privacy.

Off topic and probably already discussed but is there a msgplus for the new windows live messenger beta? if not i shall not partake in this until then!

hey all, iv installed windows live essential beta 4

and this is what i get





(click images to enlarge)

im really frustrated and i  want to know why do i get a blank screen ?

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Originally posted by xratedxr
hey all, iv installed windows live essential beta 4

and this is what i get





(click images to enlarge)

im really frustrated and i  want to know why do i get a blank screen ?

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Re-install the far superior previous version.

i don't get it what you mean? its the latest beta version though

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Originally posted by vincerooney
Off topic and probably already discussed but is there a msgplus for the new windows live messenger beta? if not i shall not partake in this until then!

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It only takes 10 seconds of looking to find out.

[!] WLM 2011 BETA and Messenger Plus! Live

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Originally posted by xratedxr
i don't get it what you mean? its the latest beta version though

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I'm sorry but you will receive no support it because it's a beta version and therefore has many bugs and problems. Just use WLM 2009. This has to be repeated every time there's a new beta...