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Windows Codename Longhorn - Really revolutionary?
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RE: RE: Windows Codename Longhorn - Really revolutionary?
quote:
Originally posted by CookieRevised
Of what I've been seeing and reading about it, it seems that more and more things are getting integrated within eachother. This can be a good thing and a bad thing.

Although it is userfriendly to the _absolute_ beginner, it can (and even is, atm) a real pain in the *beep* for more advanced users. Also the "friendlyness" and "integration" keeps the user in the dark about what really is going on, in their computer. This makes that people will not have the slightest clue anymore of what they are exactly doing.

This happens even now, today. Look at the questions on the net and other helpdesks, IRC-channels, etc. Nowadays, if you say "download that file and open it", many people don't have a clue of what the difference is between downloading, storing something on the HD and opening it. I see this everyday when I look at peoples computers: random files everywhere, and yet they say they don't have something: "I've downloaded it, but can't find it"....

Now you can say: that's something which always has happend, and we all where "noobs" once. Well, no, there is a significant difference. The whole "integration" and "keep the user in the dark" is partially (well, more then partially) to be blamed for that:
There is no learning curve anymore, and that is a bad thing. A PC is a machine; a tool. You need to learn the basics to know how to handle it (what is a folder? what is a file? What is a directory-structure?). But when even the basics are thrown out, the new beginner will not have a clue anymore when something is wrong ("I cant find that downloaded file").

Is Longhorn going to be revolutionary? Yes
Will it be a benefit for the knowledge of people about PC's? No (heck even todays Windows OS's are already slowing down the needed "learning-curve".)


Another bad thing about integreation is that the various integrated components are so much integrated that they can't function when program "x" is not working properly. So, when a user *beep*'s up program "x", and then he can't use program "y" anymore, because it relies on program "x". Or, a virus exploiting a bug in program "x", may also be able to destroy program "y"'s data.

I don't like the way MS integrates their stuff. First of all, their stuff is crap, so you don't want them to be stuck in the OS (Opera/Firefox are far superior to IE, Thunderbird works like a charm :) (dunno if it's actually better, since I haven't used Outlook for ages))

Longhorn revolutionary? Maybe.. but you are looking at it's features now, and there might be more features scrapped, and even if they are all going to make it through, it's going to be a loooong time before Longhorn releases, and we don't know what the competition has to offer for Longhorn by that time.

Longhorn insecure? I don't know. Win9x was very unstable, and I must admit that WinXP doesn't crash that often (still crashes too often, though). Microsofts' focus on security didn't influence WinXP, but it'll influence Longhorn. Will it be enough? I don't think so. MS still wants to be compatible with the past. They should be compatible with the future! :P

If people mean that Longhorn will be revolutionary if you upgrade from it's predecessor, XP, well probably yes. But XP was made in 2001, with some crappy[1] "security center" SP2 update in 2004, and Longhorn isn't going to be released until '05 '06. 4-5 years is a long time in the computer industry!

If you are talking about revolutionary, you should be talking about the competition in 2005-2006. Mac OS X is already full of eye-candy, and the noob-friendly GNU/linux distributions seem to have hired some graphics artists too! :) (I've got this beatifull water+green grass+blue sky picture with SUSE 9.1!)

[1]If a virus turns off the security center+the virus scanner, people won't notice, because when the security center is turned off, it won't warn you that virus scanner is broken, and when the security center is turned off, you won't notice!! Therefore, I refer to it as "crappy".
11-02-2004 08:25 PM
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RE: Windows Codename Longhorn - Really revolutionary?
quote:
Originally posted by PlusFan
1]If a virus turns off the security center+the virus scanner, people won't notice, because when the security center is turned off, it won't warn you that virus scanner is broken, and when the security center is turned off, you won't notice!! Therefore, I refer to it as "crappy".
can really a virus do that? i don't think so.
quote:
Originally posted by PlusFan
If you are talking about revolutionary, you should be talking about the competition in 2005-2006. Mac OS X is already full of eye-candy, and the noob-friendly GNU/linux distributions seem to have hired some graphics artists too!  (I've got this beatifull water+green grass+blue sky picture with SUSE 9.1!)
don't compare Mac to windows, because they run in different machines (apple vs x86)

about linux, it's "user friendlyness" is very far from windows'. In 2001 you could connect an usb pen drive and Windows xp automatically detected it and "mounted" it in an unit (asigned a drive letter). Today, 2004, I haven't seen any linux able to do that. Just an example of the user friendly.

M$'s integration is much better than linux', imo. Example: everywhere in windows you can do Ctrl + C, Ctrl + V to copy-paste things. In linux... well, that depends on the program. It may be select, middle click or Ctrl+K, Ctrl+Y or Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V, etc... There's no a clear unification of the way things are done. That's the point where linuxers have to improve their kernel, programs, etc...

And Windows has security holes? yes, the same as linux. But the ones of linux are less known and are constantly updated in next versions. A important thing to know is that Windows OS is way bigger than the kernel of Linux. THere are very much more lines of code in Windows. It's normal that there are bugs.


With all this, i do not mean that windows is better. It has better things. Linux too. But for the final user, the in-home user, I'd highly recommend Windows.
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11-02-2004 09:37 PM
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RE: Windows Codename Longhorn - Really revolutionary?
quote:
Originally posted by Choli
quote:
Originally posted by PlusFan
1]If a virus turns off the security center+the virus scanner, people won't notice, because when the security center is turned off, it won't warn you that virus scanner is broken, and when the security center is turned off, you won't notice!! Therefore, I refer to it as "crappy".
can really a virus do that? i don't think so.
quote:
Originally posted by PlusFan
If you are talking about revolutionary, you should be talking about the competition in 2005-2006. Mac OS X is already full of eye-candy, and the noob-friendly GNU/linux distributions seem to have hired some graphics artists too!  (I've got this beatifull water+green grass+blue sky picture with SUSE 9.1!)
don't compare Mac to windows, because they run in different machines (apple vs x86)

about linux, it's "user friendlyness" is very far from windows'. In 2001 you could connect an usb pen drive and Windows xp automatically detected it and "mounted" it in an unit (asigned a drive letter). Today, 2004, I haven't seen any linux able to do that. Just an example of the user friendly.

M$'s integration is much better than linux', imo. Example: everywhere in windows you can do Ctrl + C, Ctrl + V to copy-paste things. In linux... well, that depends on the program. It may be select, middle click or Ctrl+K, Ctrl+Y or Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V, etc... There's no a clear unification of the way things are done. That's the point where linuxers have to improve their kernel, programs, etc...

And Windows has security holes? yes, the same as linux. But the ones of linux are less known and are constantly updated in next versions. A important thing to know is that Windows OS is way bigger than the kernel of Linux. THere are very much more lines of code in Windows. It's normal that there are bugs.


With all this, i do not mean that windows is better. It has better things. Linux too. But for the final user, the in-home user, I'd highly recommend Windows.

Well, I've used a couple of Mac computers in my short lifetime, and they seem to hang while starting up. I was at a science competition, and we had to put together a PowerPoint presentation (PP for Mac) and one of the computers lost power. We turned it back on, and it took, no joke, 45 minutes for it to get to the login screen. While this might look like I'm saying that Mac OS is bad, you might want to keep reading. Mac OS is MUCH more secure than Windows. Windows has too many security holes for my taste. I patch them up as best I can, using programs like Norton, and Spybot, and Firefox (l). But there's only so far I can patch it without having to edit Windows. Which isn't all that hard, considering that all you have to do is open a command prompt window, and edit explorer.exe. Anyways, what I think is that Windows should look at trying to expand their market. They did a really good job with XP, as it almost never needed a restart, unless you did a big update (SP2 for example) to your computer. Older versions (98, 95) sucked because you had to restart before you could use a program. Now, though, Microsoft has to focus on making their platform THE platform for everything. The main way to do this, in my opinion, is to add endless amounts of goodies that can be tapped by people installing certain programs. For example, let's say you have a graphics artist. Windows could have a feature that, when Photoshop (or a similiar program) was installed, cuold allow you to turn your desktop into a drawing studio, with dockable/hideable toolbars with the different tools. But these options wouldn't appear unless the person had Photoshop installed, because Windows would need a program that supported whatever was needed. Then, let's say you have a music mixer. What about having Windows allow access to advanced Windows Media features, such as creating an internet radio station hosted by Microsoft or some affiliate, or maybe adding features into Windows Media Player that allow the user to play around with the song as it's playing, to give him inspiration. Not only would these ideas increase product appeal, but they would also not take up much space or processing power, since they would only be activated when the required programs were installed. Of course, the feature to turn these things off would be included. :) Just my two cents.
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11-03-2004 12:37 AM
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RE: Windows Codename Longhorn - Really revolutionary?
quote:
Originally posted by Chaotic_Shield
For example, let's say you have a graphics artist. Windows could have a feature that, when Photoshop (or a similiar program) was installed, cuold allow you to turn your desktop into a drawing studio, with dockable/hideable toolbars with the different tools. But etc..........
THe idea is good, however, imo, it isn't windows who should include those features. All that can already be done (and i think that's how it has to be done) by the programs theirselves. It has to be photoshop, WMP, etc... who adds those toolbars, new features, etc... Adding them in Windows would increase the final price of the product. It's better to add them in separate programs. Also,, for people who won't use those features, they not only won't be enabled but also won't be installed. Only installed and enabled when installing the programs. Better idea.
quote:
Originally posted by Chaotic_Shield
an internet radio station hosted by Microsoft or some affiliate,
M$ isn't gonna do that. Even less if it's supposed to be free:P
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11-03-2004 10:09 PM
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RE: RE: Windows Codename Longhorn - Really revolutionary?
quote:
Originally posted by Choli
quote:
Originally posted by PlusFan
1]If a virus turns off the security center+the virus scanner, people won't notice, because when the security center is turned off, it won't warn you that virus scanner is broken, and when the security center is turned off, you won't notice!! Therefore, I refer to it as "crappy".
can really a virus do that? i don't think so.

I read that in some magazine.. And if a user can turn off the security center, than logically a virus which has gained root Administrator rights, could do that too
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by PlusFan
If you are talking about revolutionary, you should be talking about the competition in 2005-2006. Mac OS X is already full of eye-candy, and the noob-friendly GNU/linux distributions seem to have hired some graphics artists too!  (I've got this beatifull water+green grass+blue sky picture with SUSE 9.1!)
don't compare Mac to windows, because they run in different machines (apple vs x86)
Why not? They still are both OSes, and both are trying to be user friendly
quote:
about linux, it's "user friendlyness" is very far from windows'. In 2001 you could connect an usb pen drive and Windows xp automatically detected it and "mounted" it in an unit (asigned a drive letter). Today, 2004, I haven't seen any linux able to do that. Just an example of the user friendly.
What kind of Server OS have you been running, Choli? :P I don't know about USB pen drives (I'll ask my dad for his when he comes home, to check), but my USB mouse works perfectly, and gets detected very fast with Knoppix (3.4-2004-05-17-EN, Knoppix is a Linux LIVE CD, which boots from a CD and doesn't need installation). Actually, Knoppix boots faster than Windows for me, even though it has to auto-detect all my hardware and load a few Gigabyte of data from a 750MB CD!
quote:
M$'s integration is much better than linux', imo. Example: everywhere in windows you can do Ctrl + C, Ctrl + V to copy-paste things. In linux... well, that depends on the program. It may be select, middle click or Ctrl+K, Ctrl+Y or Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V, etc... There's no a clear unification of the way things are done. That's the point where linuxers have to improve their kernel, programs, etc...
And you can help them to do that! (If you can code), since most linux programs are free software or open source. And, In my experience, you can do copy-paste everywhere in KDE. You do have a point, though, that some software (especially these not included with your distro) doesn't do [CTRL]+C/V
quote:
And Windows has security holes? yes, the same as linux. But the ones of linux are less known and are constantly updated in next versions. A important thing to know is that Windows OS is way bigger than the kernel of Linux. THere are very much more lines of code in Windows. It's normal that there are bugs.
Because security holes in Linux don't immediately lead to a gigantic virus infection. And comparing the Linux kernel to Windows in amount of code isn't fair, since Windows is far more than just a kernel. Linux is the kernel, GNU/Linux is the OS.

quote:
With all this, i do not mean that windows is better. It has better things. Linux too. But for the final user, the in-home user, I'd highly recommend Windows.

But we were talking about 2006 :) You must admit that Linux is evolving very fast!

[..a few minutes please while I reply to Chaotic Shield]

[...thank you for waiting!]

quote:
Originally posted by Chaotic_Shield
Well, I've used a couple of Mac computers in my short lifetime, and they seem to hang while starting up. I was at a science competition, and we had to put together a PowerPoint presentation (PP for Mac) and one of the computers lost power. We turned it back on, and it took, no joke, 45 minutes for it to get to the login screen. While this might look like I'm saying that Mac OS is bad, you might want to keep reading. Mac OS is MUCH more secure than Windows. Windows has too many security holes for my taste.
The actual problem is, I think that they can be exploted too easy, and over the internet.
quote:
I patch them up as best I can, using programs like Norton, and Spybot, and Firefox (l). But there's only so far I can patch it without having to edit Windows. Which isn't all that hard, considering that all you have to do is open a command prompt window, and edit explorer.exe. Anyways, what I think is that Windows should look at trying to expand their market. They did a really good job with XP, as it almost never needed a restart, unless you did a big update (SP2 for example) to your computer.
Yeah sure. Even normal security patches need rebooting, and so does most software!
quote:
Older versions (98, 95) sucked because you had to restart before you could use a program. Now, though, Microsoft has to focus on making their platform THE platform for everything. The main way to do this, in my opinion, is to add endless amounts of goodies that can be tapped by people installing certain programs. For example, let's say you have a graphics artist. Windows could have a feature that, when Photoshop (or a similiar program) was installed, cuold allow you to turn your desktop into a drawing studio, with dockable/hideable toolbars with the different tools. But these options wouldn't appear unless the person had Photoshop installed, because Windows would need a program that supported whatever was needed. Then, let's say you have a music mixer. What about having Windows allow access to advanced Windows Media features, such as creating an internet radio station hosted by Microsoft or some affiliate, or maybe adding features into Windows Media Player that allow the user to play around with the song as it's playing, to give him inspiration. Not only would these ideas increase product appeal, but they would also not take up much space or processing power, since they would only be activated when the required programs were installed. Of course, the feature to turn these things off would be included. :) Just my two cents.


IMO, the goodies suck. MS just adds new "goodies" for every new Windows version, but they should optimize what they have right now first, and then, and only then, add new things.

edit2: I just plugged in my Dad's pen/memory stick, and SUSE 9.1 immediately detected it and asked if I wanted to mount it and open it in Konqueror (a (file)browser)

This post was edited on 11-05-2004 at 07:00 PM by user2319.
11-05-2004 05:04 PM
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RE: Windows Codename Longhorn - Really revolutionary?
quote:
Originally posted by PlusFan
Why not? They still are both OSes, and both are trying to be user friendly
I've already said why: The run in different architectures. You can't run Windows in an apple nor run Mac on a PC (x86) Thet's why you shouldn't compare them. It's like if you compare planes with ships. In both you can travel but one is by air and the other by sea. They're different, not better or worse. You can't compare Mac and Windows or Linux without caring in which computers they run.

About the usb discussion: well, it was just an example. Last year I had to configure an usb wireless network card. It took me 5 minutes to configure it in Win XP SP1 and 2 weeks to do the same in SuSE 7.1 and 8 and I had to recompile the kernel (2.4.20) and add several modules. What I meant with that is that Windows is better prepared to support new devices and has more connectivity than linux. You SuSE 9.1 y way more recent than XP.

Also don't care about the boot speed. It depends on way more things than the time the kernel takes to load and initialize itself. Knnopix is always a just-installed OS (it's always the same iside the cd), while windows XP is not (you install programs, etc...). In my Pentium II, a just installed Windows XP takes less than 30 seconds in boot, including the bios post (all the messages of the begining, before loading the OS).
quote:
Originally posted by PlusFan
And you can help them to do that! (If you can code), since most linux programs are free software or open source. And, In my experience, you can do copy-paste everywhere in KDE. You do have a point, though, that some software (especially these not included with your distro) doesn't do [CTRL]+C/V
the end-user can't code. From the final user's point of view Windows is way more intuitive than Linux. Also, even if I'm a professional at computing (i am, btw) I want a system (OS + apps) that works. I don't want to do extra work configuring/fixing things/programs.
quote:
Originally posted by PlusFan
Because security holes in Linux don't immediately lead to a gigantic virus infection. And comparing the Linux kernel to Windows in amount of code isn't fair, since Windows is far more than just a kernel. Linux is the kernel, GNU/Linux is the OS.
talking about kernels: Windows' one is much more complete, imo. It includes the GUI which allows developers to have a centralized way to access all features of the OS. Linux includes only about 100/150 APIs, no-one of them GUI related. The GUI in linux rely on the KDE/Gnome/whatever enviorment you're running and in the TCK/TL libraries etc... Personally, I don't like that structure. Also, in Linux what a process can do is more limited. It can't hook another one or a window as easy as it can be done in Win.
quote:
Originally posted by PlusFan
You must admit that Linux is evolving very fast!
True, but not fast enough. IMO, Linux developers should focus now in the end user. Unify thing and make a really user-friendly OS They have still to "hide" the config files. An image is better than 1000 words. Dialogs, panels, windows, etc... should be done to configure things. They have to hide the technical features of Linux. An in-home user doesn't care about what /dev/hda2 is and what mounting something on somewhere is.
quote:
Originally posted by PlusFan
[..a few minutes please while I reply to Chaotic Shield]

[...thank you for waiting!]
:P;)
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11-06-2004 12:48 AM
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RE: RE: Windows Codename Longhorn - Really revolutionary?
quote:
Originally posted by Choli
quote:
Originally posted by PlusFan
Why not? They still are both OSes, and both are trying to be user friendly
I've already said why: The run in different architectures. You can't run Windows in an apple nor run Mac on a PC (x86) Thet's why you shouldn't compare them. It's like if you compare planes with ships. In both you can travel but one is by air and the other by sea. They're different, not better or worse. You can't compare Mac and Windows or Linux without caring in which computers they run.
So what if I travel both by train, car, airplane, boat, spaceshuttle, etc, and then find that IMHO one is better than another?
quote:
About the usb discussion: well, it was just an example. Last year I had to configure an usb wireless network card. It took me 5 minutes to configure it in Win XP SP1 and 2 weeks to do the same in SuSE 7.1 and 8 and I had to recompile the kernel (2.4.20) and add several modules. What I meant with that is that Windows is better prepared to support new devices and has more connectivity than linux. You SuSE 9.1 y way more recent than XP.
Well, you don't want to know how much problems my dad's experienced with usb wireless network cards, and he's running Windows. And it's not because he's too far away (signal strength is okay) but because of the software! Note for Choli: the new SUSE 9.2 focuses on WLAN and Bluetooth!
quote:
Also don't care about the boot speed. It depends on way more things than the time the kernel takes to load and initialize itself. Knnopix is always a just-installed OS (it's always the same iside the cd), while windows XP is not (you install programs, etc...). In my Pentium II, a just installed Windows XP takes less than 30 seconds in boot, including the bios post (all the messages of the begining, before loading the OS).
Even after a fresh installation, winXP takes more time for me.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by PlusFan
And you can help them to do that! (If you can code), since most linux programs are free software or open source. And, In my experience, you can do copy-paste everywhere in KDE. You do have a point, though, that some software (especially these not included with your distro) doesn't do [CTRL]+C/V
the end-user can't code. From the final user's point of view Windows is way more intuitive than Linux. Also, even if I'm a professional at computing (i am, btw) I want a system (OS + apps) that works. I don't want to do extra work configuring/fixing things/programs.
It's not extra work, it's choice! :P If you think some feature could be better, code it!
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by PlusFan
Because security holes in Linux don't immediately lead to a gigantic virus infection. And comparing the Linux kernel to Windows in amount of code isn't fair, since Windows is far more than just a kernel. Linux is the kernel, GNU/Linux is the OS.
talking about kernels: Windows' one is much more complete, imo. It includes the GUI which allows developers to have a centralized way to access all features of the OS. Linux includes only about 100/150 APIs, no-one of them GUI related. The GUI in linux rely on the KDE/Gnome/whatever enviorment you're running and in the TCK/TL libraries etc... Personally, I don't like that structure. Also, in Linux what a process can do is more limited. It can't hook another one or a window as easy as it can be done in Win.
quote:
Originally posted by PlusFan
You must admit that Linux is evolving very fast!
True, but not fast enough. IMO, Linux developers should focus now in the end user. Unify thing and make a really user-friendly OS They have still to "hide" the config files. An image is better than 1000 words. Dialogs, panels, windows, etc... should be done to configure things. They have to hide the technical features of Linux. An in-home user doesn't care about what /dev/hda2 is and what mounting something on somewhere is.
You say that Linux isn't evolving fast enough. Is windows evolving fast enough? Or Mac OS? And there are actually distro's focusing only on the end-user, like LinSpire and XandrOS and Lycoris
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by PlusFan
[..a few minutes please while I reply to Chaotic Shield]

[...thank you for waiting!]
:P;)


Back ontopic: No, I don't think Longhorn will be spectacular. Maybe it's spectacular in being slow on your brand-new AMD/Intel [cool year 2006 name] processor with extra included [cool year 2006 marketing name], and sure, it looks very nice, but that's not worth the $200 or whatever it is for me.
11-06-2004 10:15 AM
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RE: Windows Codename Longhorn - Really revolutionary?
quote:
Originally posted by PlusFan
So what if I travel both by train, car, airplane, boat, spaceshuttle, etc, and then find that IMHO one is better than another?
maybe the example wasn't good. In general, if you want to compare two things, you have to test them in the same scenario, with the same enviorment. You can say if a Ferrari is better than a Porche if you drive them in different roads. You have to drive them in the same road and decide. And even if you can't, of course you can say you like one more than the other but in fact what you're saying is that you like more the combination of the car and the road compared with the other car and the other road. The same for MAC in an Apple and Windows or Linux in a PC
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11-06-2004 01:43 PM
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RE: Windows Codename Longhorn - Really revolutionary?
quote:
Originally posted by Choli
quote:
Originally posted by PlusFan
So what if I travel both by train, car, airplane, boat, spaceshuttle, etc, and then find that IMHO one is better than another?
maybe the example wasn't good. In general, if you want to compare two things, you have to test them in the same scenario, with the same enviorment. You can say if a Ferrari is better than a Porche if you drive them in different roads. You have to drive them in the same road and decide. And even if you can't, of course you can say you like one more than the other but in fact what you're saying is that you like more the combination of the car and the road compared with the other car and the other road. The same for MAC in an Apple and Windows or Linux in a PC

I agree Choli, comparisons can be made for anything if you want to! but is that really a fair comparison? or course not! Its basicially just the persons favorite thing out the 2 or 3 things being compared!
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11-07-2004 02:20 AM
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RE: Windows Codename Longhorn - Really revolutionary?
quote:
Originally posted by blade

Note: It also looks like Longhorn will be mainly for 64-bit processors :o

Longhorn will be for both 32bit and 64bit.

quote:
Originally posted by Stigmata
You think longhorn is impressive :P


wait for blackcomb :D

What makes you think that? There has been no information on Blackcomb, apart from fake screenshots.

This post was edited on 11-07-2004 at 01:20 PM by DanC.
11-07-2004 01:20 PM
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