Shoutbox

hate to burst your bubble but if you dont setup the installation to default to "no" on the toolbar question then i dont think signing this petition will help...i love your software but i also hate spyware whether you say the toolbar isnt it.  perhaps you should start selling it because i feel u already have lots of features to make it sellable.

my real question is...is the tool bar spyware?  dont want to install it if it is

The search bar installed by the sponsor is adware, not spyware, there's a big difference between those two terms and unfortuantely, many people seem to forget that.

The setup of Messenger Plus! 3.60 has been modified to be even more clear than it already is, however, the "I refuse" option will not be checked by default (there's no reason why it should be as most other people check "yes" by default).

just fyi, i saw an article in PC User magazine (Australia) that refers to Messenger Plus! and it's sponsor program... it's a theme on spyware this month and it refers to LOP... someone might wanna read it?

I've actually just posted a message about this onto the newsgroups for Microsoft Antispyware.  This is now my second post.  It was reduced in severity after my first posting.  Although not immediately.  However it was in the next signatures update.  This time I have posted again.  I have listed the keys and program files it is improperly flagging as spyware/adware.  I also noted how it was improperly flagging MsgPlus.exe as an adware bundle installer.  I said it was OK to flag the installer that gets it installed (lastest version has it MsgPlus-354.exe) but not the actual program after it has already been installed.  They really should be concentrating on C2 Lop and not on Messenger Plus!.  Also they should make sure they are removing it properly if they are going that way.  The red adware bundle warning message is very intimidating too.  When I saw it my first thought was "it must be a bad program -- i should block it".  However right in the box it says "Because this application gives you the option to not install the adware that comes bundled, we recommend ignoring it." and that is if the user takes the time to read the message.

It was posted on the groups
microsoft.private.security.spyware.general
microsoft.private.security.spyware.signatures

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Originally posted by shinji
I also noted how it was improperly flagging MsgPlus.exe as an adware bundle installer.  I said it was OK to flag the installer that gets it installed (lastest version has it MsgPlus-354.exe) but not the actual program after it has already been installed.  They really should be concentrating on C2 Lop and not on Messenger Plus!.  Also they should make sure they are removing it properly if they are going that way.  The red adware bundle warning message is very intimidating too.  When I saw it my first thought was "it must be a bad program -- i should block it".

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that's what the problem is in the first place isnt it? and i believe that patchou has already tried contacting MSAS about it but they just sent him an automatic message, didnt address the problem at all.. that's why he set up the petition

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Originally posted by Patchou
The search bar installed by the sponsor is adware, not spyware, there's a big difference between those two terms and unfortuantely, many people seem to forget that.

The setup of Messenger Plus! 3.60 has been modified to be even more clear than it already is, however, the "I refuse" option will not be checked by default (there's no reason why it should be as most other people check "yes" by default).

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Hello Patchou,
First f.y.i., I'm not a computer expert, just a amature with VERY basic computing knowlegde. A friend of mine referred me to your application Messenger Plus! and recommended to install it on my computer. I try to be carefull with installing new applications I do not know, so I did a search on the net to see what people say about your appl. I was shocked by the amount of flag it got mainly because of the 'optional' adware the setup contains. I have no problems with adware, certainly not if there is a clear opt-out option and I'm not one to believe everything people say at first glance, so I searched further. The result was a very long list of forums and other sites that were very critical of the association between your appl. and Lop. There were very few complaints/critiques about the technical features of your appl. Almost all of it had to do with the association with Lop. I didn't know this Lop, so I decided to do a search on Lop. Well I must say that what came up was not prettty.
To keep it short (it's to long allready sorry for that), I do not know whether the uggly stuff about Lop is true or not, but purely from a marketing/PR point of view I do not understand why you would want to have your product associated with a company that obviously gets a lot of adverse publicity. Thus making your appl. - in the eyes of many - look 'suspect' if not 'guilty' by association. As I said before I try not to believe everything I read on the net, but when confronted with the amount of bad publicity Lop gets - even from generaly well known and reasonably well respected parties - even some one like me starts doubting. And since I try to follow the rule of better being safe then sorry, where the internet is concerned, chances are that I will not install an apparently very good appl. because of all the bad publicity. If I was a comp. expert, I would take the chance and install it any way. Because if anything went wrong I would know how to fix it. But I'm completely dependent on the expertese of others to solve any comp. problems I get. Have you ever considered ending the associaton between your appl. and Lop? With a product this good (according to my friend and many others) there certainly must be another company/sponsor or whatever you want to call it, with a better reputation, with whom you could do business?
Sorry for the VERY long msg, but I realy want to know your opinion. Thanks in advance if you decide to answer.
Jimmy

I have had no first hand experience of any Lop.com adware, so i wouldn't know, but many people comment on how difficult it is to remove any of the Lop.com software from your computer... This is wrong, Lop.com software (afaik) has always been very easy to uninstall simply by going into Add/Remove Programs, it is not hidden like many other pieces of adware. As for doing stuff to your system, I think that it just adds lots of desktop icons, toolbars and pop-up windows to it, therefore, making it slower... It also contains some pornography generators and stuff.

One thing you should know though, is that Patchou has actually stripped down the sponsor program that comes with messenger plus! to make it less harmful to your system and remove any of the pornographic content. So basically, he is getting less cash, for the benefit of computer users...

I'm sure that Patchou has considered removing Lop, but it is his main source of income, as he spends a lot of his time coding messneger plus!, therefore needing money for food and stuff basically...

I doubt Patchou would move to another sponsor program, as Lop.com have been very leniant on Patchou, allowing him to do a lot of stuff that other pieces of adware wouldn't allow you to do... I don't think any other company is really suitable for Messenger Plus! to be honest...

@Jimmyheb

Yes, there is bad talk about Plus! on the web. But if you look closely, they all say exactly the same. This is because they actually all copy from each other and none of those reports show the true facts about Plus! and even about the LOP sponsor.

It is very regretfully that even people with some influence don't bother researching the true facts because they are so blindfolded by their "quest against malware". Many of those people who talk bad about Plus! are simply self-proclaimed computerexperts aka, they call themselfs computer experts and they shout the loudest. This makes that the newbie, non-expert believes what those people say and copy it without question. And those so called computer experts, on their turn, then use arguments like: see everbody thinks the same... Thus you get a spiral effect.

The sad truth is, they only know much stuff about a very small bit and mostly this is spyware/adware, nothing more (*). And because of that they are extremely blind folded (I can list some people by name, people who I'm sure you came across in your search) and don't bother researching anything. But because they shout the loudest and _seem_ to know stuff, they have big influences on the forums they frequent (**). And of course other people, like you, come across this and most of them, unlike you, believe everything strait away as long as it looks good and is what they wanted to hear...

The few that do some research and don't take things for granted are very rare (I can list them by name too)... But of course because they go against the things which the others say or because they don't say what others want to hear, they have far less influence...

To illustrate this "quality in posting" difference and what to believe or not is simple. The posts telling you bad stuff about Plus! don't contain any shred of evidence except the usual hear-say like "they say this on that forum" and very vague stuff which is often based on nothing like "I have experienced this".

On the other hand, Patchou and we as supporters, have, time and again, provided very detailed explanations about what's happening, how the setup works, etc. Patchou even once posted the actual source of procedures which were questionned by those anti-Plus!'ers...

(*) Those who claim to be PC wizards and in the next post tell you they had to reformat or re-install windows or what not to get rid of spyware are full of *beep*. A true PC wizard knows that reformatting, or even re-installing windows is almost always not needed at all, and certainly not to remove a program or even some spyware. All it takes, in a worst case scenario, is editing registry settings and deleting some files. Those self-claimed PC wizards might know a lot about spyware, but often don't know that much about computers and programs in general, let alone that they have some knowledge about programming or somthing (I know I generalize a lot here, but still).

(**) for S.H., if you read this, that paragraph isn't about you (in this case) but about certain individuals on certain anti-spyware forums...

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However, you are indeed correct that, in a marketing point of view, these nonsense posts are not good. But Plus! doesn't need more marketing than it already has. The "many" bad postings aren't that massive in numbers though. They actually are only a small raindrop on a hot plate, nothing more. And luckally, most people can see thru those bad postings right away or actually read what they install.

The association with Lop can be bad, granted. But the truth is that Lop comes in many flavors and the sponsor package associated with Plus! is the absolute minimum you can get, and even then, it was stripped down even more. Most people that install Plus! and/or the optional sponsor don't care about what "level" the sponsor is. Simply because the "level" is so low that it doesn't harm anybody. It are only those few anti-Plus!'ers that make sound like it is the worst of the worst and will infect you even by looking at it.

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Before the optional sponsor was ever introduced, Patchou has considered many things. He even tried other stuff. The truth is, simple ads or a donate button wont work.

Some people have argumanted that it does work. Yes, true, for their small sites or product. But if you know that the download traffic generated on the Plus! servers and stuff goes in the TB's (instead of the GB's or MB's which most people will have) you will understand that a simple ad isn't sufficient.

For a long time people have suggested stuff. But these suggestions were always the same, and none provided a good alternative at all, for Plus! that is. Tbh, we have all heared them: ads, paypal, google, etc etc... none are a good alternative.

As an anekdote for this. Once there was someone who suggested to use some ads or whatever (can't remember) "just like that massive popular site about msn messenger" he said. He refused to believe that ads don't work. True, it worked for that specific site and for the current traffic for that site, but it wouldn't work for something as Messenger Plus!. Despite everything, he hammered on the fact that "if it works for that site, it works for Plus!"... Now, a few weeks ago, Patchou released a pre-release, only available on mess.be and 2 other very popular msn messenger sites. Soon after it got copied/leaked to other sites and with it took some sites down just because of the massive downloads it generated. The download bandwidth of that particualr example site of that dude was exceeded in no time. Just to say that many people have no idea what costs are involved in Plus! as a total package. And all that is included in this optional sponsor and the bussiness deal that Patchou has with the sponsor (and this also explains the reference you might have come across to a page which lists Patchou and the C2Media/Lop directors side by side; that page does not mean Patchou is also director of Lop, as those anti-Plus!'ers might claim; it means that Patchou and his company and the Lop company have a bussiness contract: the sponsor contract.).

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Originally posted by kipper2258
The power of the people should be considered, they can just as easily abandon your software, as they can use it.

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The ever increasing number of Plus! users tells enough I think

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
@Jimmyheb

Yes, there is bad talk about Plus! on the web. But if you look closely, they all say exactly the same. This is because they actually all copy from each other and none of those reports show the true facts about Plus! and even about the LOP sponsor....

... Just to say that many people have no idea what costs are involved in Plus! as a total package. And all that is included in this optional sponsor and the bussiness deal that Patchou has with the sponsor (and this also explains the reference you might have come across to a page which lists Patchou and the C2Media/Lop directors side by side; that page does not mean Patchou is also director of Lop, as those anti-Plus!'ers might claim; it means that Patchou and his company and the Lop company have a bussiness contract: the sponsor contract.).

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quote:

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Originally posted by kipper2258
The power of the people should be considered, they can just as easily abandon your software, as they can use it.

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The ever increasing number of Plus! users tells enough I think

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Thanks for your reply CookieRevised,
The thing is that I actualy give more weight/importance to complaints comming from people like miself (aka: 'non experts'), because they usualy portray the problems that a person like myself would encounter while using an apl.
The thing is that no matter what intentions (good or bad) a party has, if they make their program so that you need to be an 'expert' to bel able to remove it, then something is definitively wrong in that equation. I've had many an al. on my computer and being a so called 'comp. dummy'  I have made some mistakes. But most of the apl. were still relatively easy to remove even after making mistakes like "not using the official uninstall". Many supporters of plus say that if you take the correct steps nothing bad will happen. Well this is exactly the point that comp. dummies like me are trying to make. Being a bit of a comp. dummy I WILL make mistakes. And some of the supporters of plus seem to say well duh it's your own fault! Well off course it's my own fault, but should I be "punnished" for it? Not if but when I make a mistake I shouldn't have to be an expert to be able to correct it, at least not when it's about removing an apl.
I have had many an apl. on my computer and unfortunately have maade the mistake in the past of not using the proper uninstall to remove them. But thank god their makers made them in such a way that even after a mistake like that is was relatively easy to remove any remainders of the apl. from my computer. This doesn't seem to be the case with the Lop sponsor package. If I boil it down to 1 single grievance, this would be it! I don't realy care if and what any party is trying to sell, as long they don't try to force them selves on me. So may programmers have proved that it is possible to make an apl. in such a way that you need not be an expert to save your "@$$" once you have made a removal mistake. So even if not correct, it's easy to make the assumption that Lop is malafide if their package sticks to once computer like super-glue. Even you say "A true PC wizard knows that reformatting, or even re-installing windows is almost always not needed at all, and certainly not to remove a program or even some spyware. " Well that is exactly the point, I'm NOT a PC wizz, and neither are a very large group of people out there. Actualy imho computers evolved into PC's because of that very reason. Some times I see posts of so called experts that realy agevrate me. They point the finger and go "tuh, tuh , tuh, how could you be so stupid! EVERYBODY knows you should do this or that! You newbie". Well if PC were supposed to cater only to the experts, they never would have developed the user friendly interfaces like our 'good old' Windows. All those experts would be going at it using machine language DOS or what have you. That's why I hope that programmers would take the above more in consideration when making their apl. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? I hope so, because usually computers wizzs do not.
I'm reluctant to put any thing on my computer that I can not remove having only my basic computer skills. And without being "punnished" for it if I make a stupid mistake. I hope Patchou is partial to the needs of people like me. I'm not trying to lecture him (he has the right to do as he d#%m well pleases. It's a free world after all), I'm just trying to get those needs accross. And again I've rambled on for way to long...

yeah, I do understand your point.

But the things I said about the pc-wizards, like "A true PC wizard knows that reformatting (...)" weren't mean for the average people, but was meant for those who think they are a pc-wizard, but really aren't or only know something about a certain specific subject... The emphesize is in that sentence is on true.

If newbie people make mistakes, that's all natural and normal of course. I would never say "A true PC wizard knows that reformatting (...)" to somebody who is new or not so experienced in informatica, because they are not true pc wizards (yet).

But, in Plus!, it is very clear how to install/uninstall the applications itself and the sponsor if you follow the instructions given to you. All that people need to do is read.

For the uninstall itself, there is nothing special about and it follows every guideline of the "user-friendlyness", so to speak. A program is uninstalled from add/remove programs in Windows. These are things which even the newbie user should know. And besides, it isn't that abnormal or difficult to know this either.

The biggest problem with all this is not Plus! or the setup program, which afterall doesn't do anything abnormal and is very user-friendly (if all you do is read what is put on screen), but the fact that some people listen and read what those so-called-experts say on certain forums. And because these people don't have expertize of their own, they take the crap talk from these "pc-wizards" for granted. Who can blame them...

I can given douzen of examples where these "experts" say to use anti-spyware programs to kill a program. Well, this is the last step anybody should be taken. The first step should be to look into add/remove programs for a way to uninstall the application like it was meant to.

So the trouble is not with the newbies who make mistakes, but with these fake experts who give very wrong and bad advise.

Nevertheless, Patchou has listened to people like you and their needs, and still listens to them. That's why, over the several versions, the setup and uninstall procedure got user-friendlier and user-friendlier up to a point where it is now. It really can't be made more easy and user-friendly than it already is. Of course, you will always get people who don't bother to read something, but this isn't the fault of the programmers...

And about computer getting user-friendly. True, computers have come a long way. But again, they are at a point where it realy can't be much more "user-friendly". A computer still stays a machine. With every type of machine there comes instructions which you need to know before you can use it properly. Unfortunatly, many vendors (and in this case I take MS in this group also) push and push and push on this user-friendly thing up to a point where the people like you are actually kept dumb so to speak. This isn't good either.

You need basic knowledge to run any machine. Take that add/remove programs for example; that is a very basic thing people need to know before they could properly install/uninstall a program. If they want to remove something, they should automatically think "ah, I need to look into add/remove programs for that". It is not up to the programmers of these programs to teach people that. It is up to those who build the OS, or even up to those who sell this machine to somebody to inform them about how you use it...

Anyways, your input and point of view in this is certainly noted (and thank you for the nice discussion, because as you can read on several forums and even in some threads on this forum, not everybody is so mature to be able to discuss this in a civil way)