Shoutbox

CookieRevised,

We can debate whether such an ID card is a good idea or not, but you are clearly mistaken (or using your own personal definition of anonymity) here:

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you need to insert your internet ID card in the slot attached to your commputer. When the chatroom has verified that you are underage (or whatever) you can access it, still anonymously!

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There is nothing "anonymous" about that.  The site has verified a government issued ID.  It knows who you are and probably has logged that information.  It may not necessarily display this information to other users, but your access is absolutely, positively not anonymous.

This may be appropriate for banking, online voting and similar uses, but has potential for grave consequences for your privacy if it ever became ubiquitous and used as a "universal logon" solution in the more casual areas of the Internet.

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Originally posted by Adeptus
CookieRevised,

We can debate whether such an ID card is a good idea or not, but you are clearly mistaken (or using your own personal definition of anonymity) here:

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you need to insert your internet ID card in the slot attached to your commputer. When the chatroom has verified that you are underage (or whatever) you can access it, still anonymously!

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There is nothing "anonymous" about that.  The site has verified a government issued ID.  It knows who you are and probably has logged that information.

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right....


Such remarks are always done when such login systems are in development or what not. Changes are the "big brother" knows more about you by you using your cell phone than it would by the use of such ID systems.

Not only that, but when I say anonymously I mean anonymously; there would be nobody in the chatroom knowing who you are. And as for the "system" knowing it, there are already clear rules at what the "system" can ask and what not, or what systems can do what. There are stages of accessebility of the information on it, which even govermental instancies need to keep.

And even if it did, who cares? Do you have anything to hide from the "system"? Don't believe you are actually surfing totally anonymously (by your definition) atm. Even on this forum your IP is logged.

With the eID it would be exactly the same as with all the systems already in use (forums, ISP's logging their users IP's, cell phone companies holding a record for a few years of who you called, goverments who keep info on your health in their files, etc, etc, etc). There would be nothing special or out of the ordinary with the use of such eID's.

Privacy is of course one of the main concearns which the developpers keep in mind, be sure of that. Furthermore, using the eID isn't mandatory, it is your own choice.

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And on a personal note, I would rather have my children needing to identify themselfs before they could use a chatroom (totally identifying themself, no anonymous nicks and stuff), and thus also the other people, than having the children talk alone to total anonymous strangers, if I had the choice.

And that is one of the main uses of such an eID. And the other main uses is to identify yourself with e-banks and stuff who already know everything (what they need to know) about you anyways.

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And as for the "system" knowing it, there are already clear rules at what the "system" can ask and what not, or what systems can do what. There are stages of accessebility of the information on it, which even govermental instancies need to keep.

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There are two distinct areas of concern here: data collection and retention by the provider of the service verifying such an ID (e.g. operator of the hypothetical chat room, presumably a private entity) and data collection by the government issuing the ID.

The two concerns are different and I am not sure which you are calling the "system".  However, existence of rules does not guarantee they will be followed (especially by governments) and that the rules won't be changed retroactively. 

If you consent to the proposed uses for the collected information today, will you have the power to compel all involved entities to erase it tomorrow, should the rules for its use and disclosure change?  I think not.  Water spilled on sand does not go back in the bottle.

Of more immediate concern, however, are the private entities -- the chatroom, web board, blog site operators and so forth -- who would be obtaining a lot more information through the use of the ID system (if they were to use it), compared to your IP address and whatever you choose to tell them, now.

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And even if it did, who cares? Do you have anything to hide from the "system"?

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That is the classic argument used by those defending the erosion of individual privacy. 

Instead of entering into lengthy discussion, I would like to refer you to the answer in the PGP FAQ.  While that talks about encryption, the issues of privacy, anonymity and free expression are all closely related.

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Don't believe you are actually surfing totally anonymously (by your definition) atm. Even on this forum your IP is logged.

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Of course.  However, comparing that to authentication of a government issued ID is ludicrous.

For one, the IP address doesn't directly expose anything other than the general location of the user.  Matching an IP address to a real life identity presently requires contact with and cooperation of the user's Internet service provider.  The proposed ID system exposes the real life identity directly.

Secondly, the IP address can be obscured.  If I didn't wish my IP address logged on these forums (as an example), I could easily prevent it.  There is Tor, there are open proxies, unsecured wireless access points, public computers at libraries and Internet cafes, and other means.

Furthermore, even if you succeed at finding out who the IP address belongs to,  it is not conclusive identification.  My computer could've been compromised (a drone) or somebody could have parked outside my house and used my wireless access point.

The point here is that your comparison of the ID system to collection of IP addresses is poorly thought out and understates the degree of exposure.

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Furthermore, using the eID isn't mandatory, it is your own choice.

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For now.  Wide adoption could lead to it being effectively mandatory -- when everyone uses it, other choices will disappear.  That is why such proposals need to be scrutinized and fought (when necessary) early on.

I think it is clear our disagreement (as well as your disagreement with the O.P. of the poll and its negative responders) is not about the technical details, but priorities and philosophy.  There are people who are willing to trade their privacy for perception of safety, but there are also those who firmly oppose such compromises and believe it will lead to neither.

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Originally posted by Adeptus
There are two distinct areas of concern here: data collection and retention by the provider of the service verifying such an ID (e.g. operator of the hypothetical chat room, presumably a private entity) and data collection by the government issuing the ID. The two concerns are different and I am not sure which you are calling the "system".

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Nope, they aren't different, both need to apply the very same rules.

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Originally posted by Adeptus
However, existence of rules does not guarantee they will be followed (especially by governments)

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I don't know in what country you live in, but in the real world even the government does follow (its own) rules.

You let it seem like the government is an entitiy which does what it want. This is certainly not true and, to put it very bluntly, is only the fantasy of paranoid people or those who watch to much movies.

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Originally posted by Adeptus
If you consent to the proposed uses for the collected information today, will you have the power to compel all involved entities to erase it tomorrow, should the rules for its use and disclosure change?

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Yes. That is a very important and big part of the privacy law and law on collecting personal information. It always has been and will always be so.

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Originally posted by Adeptus
Of more immediate concern, however, are the private entities -- the chatroom, web board, blog site operators and so forth -- who would be obtaining a lot more information through the use of the ID system (if they were to use it), compared to your IP address and whatever you choose to tell them, now.

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1) That is exactly why they made the eID in the first place: To have a solid means to verify if someone is minor or not for example.
2) As I said earlier, not all entities can read the same info. Some will only be able to read X, others can only read Y, etc...

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Originally posted by Adeptus

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And even if it did, who cares? Do you have anything to hide from the "system"?

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That is the classic argument used by those defending the erosion of individual privacy.

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There is nothing being erosed at all.

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Originally posted by Adeptus

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Don't believe you are actually surfing totally anonymously (by your definition) atm. Even on this forum your IP is logged.

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Of course.  However, comparing that to authentication of a government issued ID is ludicrous.

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It is exactly the same. Why? Because even the governments need to keep themselfs to the privacy laws and stuff...

Again, the government is not the allmighty big brother trying to the erase the privacy of people as yuo so often see in movies and on the net.

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Originally posted by Adeptus
For one, the IP address doesn't directly expose anything other than the general location of the user.  Matching an IP address to a real life identity presently requires contact with and cooperation of the user's Internet service provider.  The proposed ID system exposes the real life identity directly.

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Nope, it does not. Please before going any further take a step in the real life, research why they have the eID, what it is, how it is going to be used, how it will be implemented, what entities can (not) do with it, read up on how governments work, how they also need to keep themselfs to the law, etc.

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Originally posted by Adeptus
I think it is clear our disagreement (as well as your disagreement with the O.P. of the poll and its negative responders) is not about the technical details, but priorities and philosophy. There are people who are willing to trade their privacy for perception of safety, but there are also those who firmly oppose such compromises and believe it will lead to neither.

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Without knowing "technical details", how something will work, you can not discuss the results or philosphy behind it.

Of course there were some privacy issues to be worked out, but be assured that they are/were worked upon before this was/is put in general public! And no, governments (at least here, in democracies) will not be able to read all the info they want just like that and each sub-instancy of the government would only be able to access the info they need. The same with private entities.

I would've agreed with all you've said (mostly), if, and only IF 1) the eID is what you let it seem to be (which is not), 2) is being used like you let it seem to be (which is not), and 3) if the goverments are indeed the all mighty corrupt privacy erasing monsters as you let it be (which is not).

If it was like you believe it is, it would never have been developped and been put in production in the first place because it would indeed be a major invasion of privacy.

Hi,

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You let it seem like the government is an entitiy which does what it want. This is certainly not true and, to put it very bluntly, is only the fantasy of paranoid people or those who watch to much movies.

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It may not be true in Belgium.  However, I am looking at the concept from a global perspective (given the Internet is a global network and several other countries already have the same type of ID in the pipeline).

To put it very bluntly, if your belief of government benevolence and compliance with its own laws extends to every government on the planet, I think it is you who might benefit from some dose of reality.

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take a step in the real life, research why they have the eID, what it is, how it is going to be used, how it will be implemented, what entities can (not) do with it, read up on how governments work...

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Please do not patronize me. Not everyone who disagrees with your views is automatically ignorant.