Shoutbox

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Originally posted by CookieRevised

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Originally posted by azn angel
and tbh, i am fucking sick of white australians saying gtfo of OUR country. White people are not the original inhabitants of this country, they basically stole it.

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Amen to that.

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As sad and terrible that part of history was, like many (if not a majority) of other countries and civilizations around the world, races have been conquered by other races.

I'm not condoning what has happened to the Aboriginals, however i'm just saying that similar "wars" have happened all around the world with other civilizations taking over the land/riches of other races. The aboriginals lost "the war" essentially and now Australia is a country belonging to every Australian citizen. Which i'm glad today includes the original inhabitants - the Aboriginals.

I hear what you're saying, but what happened in Australia is actually quite different than what happened in most other countries. For starters there wasn't even a war (fair or not) to begin with.
(I noticed you quoted 'war' though, but still...) OK, there were settlements and all, but the penal collony and the later goldrush made that its history is somewhat different and can't be compared as such to other "new found lands".

Even the fact that most stuff happened around the 1900s, a time when you would think people would have learned one or two things from the past (eg: history about the America's and Indian people, etc) makes it a bit unique.

Not to mention that it was only after the second world war that the second extremely massive immigration began, which was conducted by their own goverment, which would lead to overpopulation in some areas and many of the disputes about land rights.

On top of this there was a "only white people can immigrate" policy up till the '70s, and together with other (racist) rules lead to fear of other races and a common racism in Australia, which is still present up to today in many people (liking it or not).

Let alone that still up to this day, the indigious inhabitants are being tricked and land is still being stolen from them, despite land right acts (which where made way too late to begin with)... Not to mention that economy is still dictating what land owners (or rather, those who did owned the land but were bought out) get (or rather not get), which is something you'll only see happening in 3rd world countries anymore...

Anyways, a lot has been done about this, and you would know the history of your own country better than I do, but it is still somewhat questionable (from the POV of an outsider) that all such stuff can happen in such modern times. But the main point of azn angel was, I think, that there are still a lot of white Austrialans who are completely oblivious to most of those facts and still do as if they "own" Australia and have every right to claim whatever land they want and calling the original inhabitants immigrants, while in fact it is them who are the immigrants. If this is because the history thought in school maybe only extents to the "white" history, I dunno, but still...

to make it clear: i do not think all Australians are racists though. far from it actually!!! The ones I know are actualy very anti-racism.
I wonder what SH thinks of this, if she reads this

EDIT: PS - very impressive knowledge of Australian History cookie

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Originally posted by CookieRevised

Anyways, a lot has been done about this, but it is still somewhat questionable (from the POV of an outsider). But the main point of azn angel was, I think, that there are a lot of white Austrialans who are completely oblivious to those facts and still do as if they "own" Australia and have every right to claim whatever land they want and calling the original inhabitants immigrants.

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Yeah, obviously that is completely wrong as the Aboriginals in my view have exactly the same rights as any other Australian - white, black, infact any colour, race, culture or religion.

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
I hear what you're saying, but what happened in Australia is actually quite different than what happened in most other countries. For starters there wasn't even a war (fair or not) to begin with.
(I noticed you quoted 'war' though, but still...)

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Yeah sorry, i quoted 'war' because as you explained it doesn't exactly fit nicely in that category as some other events in the past can. It was a very unique situation.

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
Even the fact that most stuff happened around the 1900s, a time when you would think people would have learned one or two things from the past

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Its amazing how blindly people can act. However, once again, what makes this situation unique is that the English believed that the Aboriginals did not own the land as they had not cultivated it or used it for cattle etc. Obviously we can see now how flawed that view was but that is what they thought back then.

The truly unique aspect of this part of Australia's history is that from a legal perspective Australia was found in the eyes of the English as "terra nullis" (feel free to correct my spelling ) - meaning of course "land belonging to no one". I won't go into the technical aspects of the implications of this but lets say it wasn't exactly an exciting 300 page read . Essentially from this day the current common law legal system of England was in place in Australia governing the conduct/autonomy of the Aboriginals. If instead, the British conquered the Aboriginals "winning" the land then the English common law system would have actually had to be positively implemented for it to take effect. So basicially, the laws that worked in England.. and i think its safe to say could not be said to be perfectly adapted for Australia were technically in force. Interesting stuff...

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Originally posted by CookieRevised

Let alone that still up to this day, the indigious inhabitants are still being tricked and land is still being stolen from them, despite land right acts (which where made far too late to begin with)... Not to mention that economy is still dictating what land owners (or rather, those who did owned the land but were bought out) get (or rather not get), which is something you'll only see happening in 3rd world countries anymore...

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I'm sorry but that is completely wrong. Land is not being stolen from Aboriginals today. It may have been stolen in the past from the Aboriginals who rightfully owned it but i highly doubt land is being stolen from Aboriginals to this day that rightfully own the land. Aboriginals have mostly an equal standing with all other Australians and i haven't heard of them being tricked in any way ever in my life time in the manner you are referring to. Many Aboriginals have taken their cases to court and the landmark decision was in the early 1990s with Mabo v The State of Queensland where Aboriginal land rights were recognised and became part of our law.

As you said, these rights were long overdue and thats exactly what the judges of the High Court said themselves (of course, the HCA had to wait until a case actually came before them to alter the law).

As for the economy dictating what the Aboriginals get in regard to their stolen land: well i'm not exactly sure what you mean in regards to the economy. This is a human rights issue and it is not a simple one. The fact is that despite that in the PAST some Australians have stolen the land of previous generations of Aboriginals, those Australians are not likely to be the ones owning the land that Aboriginals today are claiming. Its a conflict of rights between the innocent present Australians owning the land that will lose out substantially if the land is given back to the Aboriginals and the Aboriginals who their ancestors had their land stolen from them.

That is why their is a high onus of proof on any Aboriginal tribe/group claiming land on the basis of native title - they need to establish they've been living and using the land since "time immemorial". Basicially they need to establish they've always been living there, including up to the present time. Obviously it is going to be hard for anymore Aboriginals to claim native title as as time goes on they still need to be living on the current owners land etc.

Now whilst this may seem unfair to the Aboriginals, it is a very complicated issue of land rights which the Australian courts don't treat lightly and as such there should be a high onus on anyone trying to claim someone elses lawfully aquired land.

It is even debatable in the first place that native title should exist. Whilst i'm not knowledgeable on this, how many other conquered races in the world have been given their land back by their conquerors (or the generation after generation of the race that conquered them)?

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Originally posted by Chestah
I'm sorry but that is completely wrong. Land is not being stolen from Aboriginals today. It may have been stolen in the past from the Aboriginals who rightfully owned it but i highly doubt land is being stolen from Aboriginals to this day that rightfully own the land.

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Unfortunatly I can't quote the source atm, but last year I came across a reportage from UK journalists (BBC?) which claimed otherwise. That despite the fact that some tribe had land rights, they still were being "tricked" by a big ass company and gained absolutely nothing for letting them mining their land. (I think it was somewhere in northern Arnhem Land, but don't quote me on this).

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Originally posted by CookieRevised

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Originally posted by Chestah
I'm sorry but that is completely wrong. Land is not being stolen from Aboriginals today. It may have been stolen in the past from the Aboriginals who rightfully owned it but i highly doubt land is being stolen from Aboriginals to this day that rightfully own the land.

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Unfortunatly I can't quote the source atm, but last year I came across a reportage from UK journalists (BBC?) which claimed otherwise. That despite the fact that some tribe had land rights, they still were being "tricked" by a big ass company and gained absolutely nothing for letting them mining their land. (I think it was somewhere in northern Arnhem Land, but don't quote me on this).

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I have no reason to think that would be untrue as i vaguely remember something of the sorts. Of course there are people in all countries in the world that try and manipulate people with certain situational disabilities etc like the aboriginals. If their consent was vitiated in whatever deal i'm guessing they agreed to then they should have taken it to court. We have a legal system for a reason and although i realise its often too expensive for most (sadly) i'm sure a lawyer would have helped them - big ass mining company = $$$$?

I guess we wouldn't know what was really happening until we viewed the evidence of both sides. Trust me... unfortunately from the experiences i've had with Aboriginals near my home town (and these are where the unfortunate stereotypes come from...) are ones of deceit, criminal in nature, where they hide behind their race and skin colour saying anyone who says that they did something wrong is racist. =/

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Originally posted by Jimbo

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Originally posted by SpunkyLoveMuff
England (Not UK) ftw!

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While we are talking about history... we could mention all the countries England has screwed up over the centuries by invading, pillaging all their resources and then bringing them back to England completely destroying the future economic potential for those countries! But yeah...

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Originally posted by Chestah
unfortunately from the experiences i've had with Aboriginals near my home town (and these are where the unfortunate stereotypes come from...) are ones of deceit, criminal in nature, where they hide behind their race and skin colour saying anyone who says that they did something wrong is racist. =/

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blah, I know what you mean... those are equally bad (actually, if not worse) than those "white" racist people... We have some of those here too. Heck, they pop up everywhere in the world, unfortunatly...

Put them together with the racists and let them kill eachother (I didn't meant that... hmmm, maybe I do .... nah....)

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Originally posted by CookieRevised
If this is because the history thought in school maybe only extents to the "white" history, I dunno, but still...

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Whilst I agree with most of what you said I would just like to defend the Australian education system
We are taught a large deal (in my state of NSW at least) about the Aboriginal peoples including their culture and religion (even from primary, that is 'elementary', school), as well as history involving the acts of Europeans (Settlement, murdering/hunting, Stolen Generations) and it is often taught in an unbiased manner, perhaps even weighted towards the Aboriginal point of view (at least in my schooling experiences).

35 degrees in my bedroom this morning Woke up and could barely move Stupid aircon not working even though we have had it fixed 3 times in the last 2 months. Bloody aussie heat

Cookie, I realise our past is quite questionable, but many other countries around the world enforced racist immigration policy around those times as well.

And I would be happy to give land back to aboriginals if they would use it for historical purposes, but it's not going to happen.  I used to live near a town of aboriginals and it was quite astonishing how bad things can be (I don't think this is the place to be telling any of the stories).  I realise there is some good in these communities, but with the 'reverse racism' and them punishing "white" people (or calling for punishment) over ANY incident involving an aboriginal, that is where I have a problem.  Palm Island's death in custody inquiry is a prim example of the political correctness that is ruining us, if Cameron was white then there would have been nothing really said about it (and yes his name was cameron before his death, after that the media started calling him by his aboriginal name).

Racism from white people still exists, but it normally comes from the people who have to deal with aboriginals the most, it changes their perspective on them negatively unfortunately.  Unline Europeans, Aboriginals haven't had alcohol over the vast number of generations, so they are not used to it, when they do have it it effects them much quicker than normal and hence leads to problems.  Plus they start to expect society to pay for them to survive because they apparently have it hard.  At the moment they get paid an allowance by the government and get extra funding at school, just for being aboriginal.  This money mosty gets wasted on booze (or metholated spirits), paint and petrol from my experience.

I realise you'll try to tell me that I'm beingvery steroetypical, but when you see the places and hear a few stories from you parents about what was happening, then you do believe the unfortunate trueth.  The only way I believe these things can be changed is with a long term approach to build up their sense of community and respect for authoity and self through their own people, but our government only wants quick fixes because they need to get re-elected next time.