Shoutbox

quote:

---

Originally posted by Th3rmal

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike
Microsoft Office.

---

thats a good argument right there

---

office was only half done when you see it from mattisdada's development POV you actually realize that he is right and office 2007 sucks balls, the reasons for this:
-there is no simple way to convert docx files to doc so if you forget or didn't realize someone didn't have 2007 your screwed
-the new xml layout is unnecessary and only half completed (some objects won't group together properly)
-publisher doesn't have a ribbon which was a big development mistake
-from what i have read the new engine for word 2007 was only half implemented, because they rushed the end of it and used old word code to complete it in time for the release of vista, that's why only power point has decent word art

and also although not part of office directly web expressions should have had a ribbon and there is no excuse for not having one since it was released after  office 2007
that's my rant
ubuntu ftw

quote:

---

Originally posted by absorbation
I got really frustrated when Vista updated itself and restarted without telling me, and I lost half the essay I wrote ...

I use my iPod touch and iTunes and instantly I know where everything is, Apple software is extremely user friendly. I think Microsoft just don't get their customers.

---

and i have to agree apple are much more in-touch with their users, just look at their ad campaigns i think they chose pretty good likenesses for the two operating systems

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jarrod

quote:

---

Originally posted by Th3rmal

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike
Microsoft Office.

---

thats a good argument right there

---

office was only half done when you see it from mattisdada's development POV you actually realize that he is right and office 2007 sucks balls, the reasons for this:
-there is no simple way to convert docx files to doc so if you forget or didn't realize someone didn't have 2007 your screwed
-the new xml layout is unnecessary and only half completed (some objects won't group together properly)
-publisher doesn't have a ribbon which was a big development mistake
-from what i have read the new engine for word 2007 was only half implemented, because they rushed the end of it and used old word code to complete it in time for the release of vista, that's why only power point has decent word art

and also although not part of office directly web expressions should have had a ribbon and there is no excuse for not having one since it was released after  office 2007
that's my rant
ubuntu ftw

---

Docx and doc converstion is inbuilt and simple..... You just click save as either doc or docx . You can open up both and save as either.....


But yeah, Ubuntu is an example of the power of numbers and open source You have to love open source.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Th3rmal

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jarrod
ubuntu ftw

---

MS-DOS for the win

---

Yeah! Fantastic OS

quote:

---

Originally posted by absorbation
I got really frustrated when Vista updated itself and restarted without telling me, and I lost half the essay I wrote ...

---

That's why there are options to disable auto-starting

quote:

---

Originally posted by mattisdada
Vista will never just "reset itself". If you happened to press "Reset now" when a popup asking if you wanted to reset.... well, its going to reset isnt it? (Smilie)

And if you set it to Auto Update. Then yes, it will AUTO update.....

---

indeed

-----------------------------

As for MS not listening: Yes, for some products they need to listen more. For other products they listen a bit too much (imho)....

Remember that MS is 'just' a brand name actually, and a big global company. Each and every product has his own policies, ways of doing things, own offices, etc... including its own budgets!

As for Messenger, their budget isn't that big and they actually loose money! (yes, even with the adverts).

Also, consider that they've come a very very very long way in terms of listening to their customers. They're doing a great job... Of course, things can always improve.

But for things to improve they need you, the customer, too!!! You need to give them feedback. If you don't or you always give improper feedback (spam and stuff like "it doesn't work") then of course they are not going to listen in the long end.

As for speed of producing products and updates: That too is a result of how things work at those levels. Plus! is made by 1 person and doesn't depend on 10001 things and 3rd party stuff. The same can be said for other stuff like FireFox. Although that app obviously must work with a lot more stuff, it still has a rather limited platform (=EDIT: for the lack of a better word, I don't mean OS).

The main thing from MS products is that they all are in someway related to eachother, need to work with eachother and are run on the most used platform in the world. Such stuff needs to be tested and that takes longer than a 3rd party product which expects that the platform it runs on (MS!) is stable. It sounds stupid, but think about how it comes how all their products look similar and how it comes that you instantly (mostly) reconize menu items and what they stand for (eg: why is the menu Edit called Edit and not something else (eg: change)). Such things need time... A 3rd party developer doesn't have such issues and just could call that menu whatever he wants (and some do). This is all part of the big (slugish) picture, fortunatly (everything is easly reconized by people) or not (slowness in r&d and testing).


And there are as much (dis)advantages to open source as there are to closed source. Both things can not be compared like that as they both work in completely different ways.



-------

Note: I'm not a MS-fanboy at all. There is plenty of MS-stuff which I have issues with. And I love stuff from other platforms too. But I'm also sick to see people bashing MS just because "they can" or because "everybody does it"... At least try to understand a few things first before bashing MS to kingdom hell. When you do, be my guest, I maybe may join you with some issues

Actually I was pretty pissed off with Vista other night on a friends laptop. I was helping her get Adobe Stuff Installed, and it just shut itself down about 1/2 the way through installation, no updates no pop ups nothing, had to restart it all over again and that installer is helluva slow thing anyway

quote:

---

Originally posted by CookieRevised
FireFox. Although that app obviously must work with a lot more stuff, it still has a rather limited platform.

---

It works on the 3 main operating systems, and others, so not a limited platform really. My Uni hands out firefox and other free 'good software' on disc to the people in halls when they move in, afaik everyone uses it here, and it's not exactly got a small userbase either. So what platform are you referring to exactly?

quote:

---

Originally posted by CookieRevised
That's why there are options to disable auto-starting (Smilie)

---

It should be disabled by default! It's happened to me and probably others, someone could of lost something really valuable due to this feature. I just find it's the little things that count and Vista is a really poor operating system for the amount of development time on it if I am honest (I don't care about 'under-the-hood' features, I want to see things I have paid for).

quote:

---

Originally posted by absorbation

quote:

---

Originally posted by CookieRevised
That's why there are options to disable auto-starting (Smilie)

---

It should be disabled by default! It's happened to me and probably others, someone could of lost something really valuable due to this feature. I just find it's the little things that count and Vista is a really poor operating system for the amount of development time on it if I am honest (I don't care about 'under-the-hood' features, I want to see things I have paid for).

---

Pfft, well you should go through and set all your settings, explore the system etc, when you install a new OS you've not used before anyway

quote:

---

Originally posted by absorbation

quote:

---

Originally posted by CookieRevised
That's why there are options to disable auto-starting (Smilie)

---

It should be disabled by default! It's happened to me and probably others, someone could of lost something really valuable due to this feature. I just find it's the little things that count and Vista is a really poor operating system for the amount of development time on it if I am honest (I don't care about 'under-the-hood' features, I want to see things I have paid for).

---

Unless your a hacker/cracker (like me... shhhhh) automatic updating is very convienent and wont loose you a thing.....

Like i said, you pressing the Reset Now, button is what lost your work.

Hate it when people do that.... something pops up, and they think its a game, what butting will f' up there computer more!
"Do you wish to wipe your computer?" "Certainly!"
"This program is asking to few your cammara and send its data to pedophile.pedo.com. Do you wish to continue" "Sure, why not, im naked, so they wont see anything special"... grrrrr

quote:

---

Originally posted by CookieRevised

quote:

---

Originally posted by absorbation
I got really frustrated when Vista updated itself and restarted without telling me, and I lost half the essay I wrote ...

---

That's why there are options to disable auto-starting

quote:

---

Originally posted by mattisdada
Vista will never just "reset itself". If you happened to press "Reset now" when a popup asking if you wanted to reset.... well, its going to reset isnt it? (Smilie)

And if you set it to Auto Update. Then yes, it will AUTO update.....

---

indeed

-----------------------------

As for MS not listening: Yes, for some products they need to listen more. For other products they listen a bit too much (imho)....

Remember that MS is 'just' a brand name actually, and a big global company. Each and every product has his own policies, ways of doing things, own offices, etc... including its own budgets!

As for Messenger, their budget isn't that big and they actually loose money! (yes, even with the adverts).

Also, consider that they've come a very very very long way in terms of listening to their customers. They're doing a great job... Of course, things can always improve.

But for things to improve they need you, the customer, too!!! You need to give them feedback. If you don't or you always give improper feedback (spam and stuff like "it doesn't work") then of course they are not going to listen in the long end.

As for speed of producing products and updates: That too is a result of how things work at those levels. Plus! is made by 1 person and doesn't depend on 10001 things and 3rd party stuff. The same can be said for other stuff like FireFox. Although that app obviously must work with a lot more stuff, it still has a rather limited platform.

The main thing from MS products is that they all are in someway related to eachother, need to work with eachother and are run on the most used platform in the world. Such stuff needs to be tested and that takes longer than a 3rd party product which expects that the platform it runs on (MS!) is stable. It sounds stupid, but think about how it comes how all their products look similar and how it comes that you instantly (mostly) reconize menu items and what they stand for (eg: why is the menu Edit called Edit and not something else (eg: change)). Such things need time... A 3rd party developer doesn't have such issues and just could call that menu whatever he wants (and some do). This is all part of the big (slugish) picture, fortunatly (everything is easly reconized by people) or not (slowness in r&d and testing).


And there are as much (dis)advantages to open source as there are to closed source. Both things can not be compared like that as they both work in completely different ways.



-------

Note: I'm not a MS-fanboy at all. Their is plenty of MS-stuff which I have issues with. And I love stuff from other platforms too. But I'm also sick to see people bashing MS just because "they can" or because "everybody does it"... At least try to understand a few things first before bashing MS to kingdom hell. When you do, be my guest, I maybe may join you with some issues

---

Hmm, you brought up a couple of really good points there cookie.

Yes it is true, Microsoft is split up into many such "mini-organisations", but, MS still need to get there act together.... Windows 7, needs to be a brand new platform. I dont care if we will have combatability problems! I just want a new stable platform. We will deal with it...... (On that note, alot of Apple fanboys have been hounding Vista for its incombatabilitys..... does anyone remember when Macs became Intel? There was 0 combatability )

I like open source as a concept, in practice.... it doesnt work so good. It generally doesnt get tested as much, and developers generally arnt that commited to it as much as someone getting employed and paid to do it..... so it does weaken projects.

And what products do you belive that they have listened "to much" on? Is it office? Beaucase i belive they listened to much on Office, but i acctually like Office 07. I like the ribbion, it just takes a day or two to get used to where everything is. But its far more powerfull as well as quicker in generall...... My powerpoint presentations have never had so much OMPH, then they do with 07.... Lots of fancy effects .

Im not saying that Microsoft is bad or anything... im just saying, they could do a bit better.... Windows is good for a singular reason, its 3rd party support. Most other OS's you just cant find the range of software you can for Windows, you can do practicly anything on Windows, but your limited far more on other OS's. If it lost that.... well..... theres better choices now a days .

And another project that doesnt get mentionend enough is Sun Micro's Solaris...... I personally dont like it, but its great as a local server..... So everything has its use

I hear they have horrible source managements.  I mean, how could it take so many developers so long to make Windows Vista?  When it took less than a tenth of those developers to make something similar (if not better) over at Apple long before it appeared on Vista?

Bad source management.  Interesting tale from an insider.

quote:

---

Originally posted by mattisdada
Windows 7, needs to be a brand new platform. I dont care if we will have combatability problems! I just want a new stable platform. We will deal with it......

---

Well, most people do want compatibility (including 3rd party companies), and there lays the biggest 'problem'. MS lives on compatibility and it was, is, and will be the road they follow. That is one of the things what makes MS being used by most people compared to other platforms....

quote:

---

Originally posted by mattisdada
Windows is good for a singular reason, its 3rd party support. Most other OS's you just cant find the range of software you can for Windows, you can do practicly anything on Windows, but your limited far more on other OS's.

---

And that is exactly the reason why developping stuff (especially an OS) is so difficult. Many people (bashers) don't even have the slightest clue about how much work and how much problems there can be when making something like Windows which needs to run on the biggest variaty of hardware and needs to support most of the hardware and software which exists in the world without breaking anything....

And because it is so huge and complicated, and because more people use it than anything else, there are of course more bugs found, more stuff which does break, more virusses (because you can infect more people because more people use it), etc.... This hasn't got much todo with MS being MS. It has todo with the wide userbase and massive software.

To give an extreme example of how simple it is: If I would wrote my own OS, of course there aren't going to be any holes in it, and of course I wouldn't have any virusses and its compatibility would be great (since I alone decides and knows what I use or not), and bug fixes or updates would be instant, all because I would be the only one using it....


for Svip: compare that to Apple, Apple doesn't have such wide variaty of software, and their PCs are all the same too with not too much different hardware (well, it used to be).

quote:

---

Originally posted by mattisdada
So everything has its use

---

aye


Oh, and an inside MVP thingie (well, actually not a secret since you can read it in public too, but still ): At MS they know damn well that Vista isn't what it was supposed to be... To quote Steve Ballmer when he was very enthiousiastically summing up some stuff MS accomplished in the last year, in his keynotes speech at the MVP summit: "Then there's Vista, a work ermmm (small but ackward pause)... in progress... (at this point 1500 MVPs laughed and applauded)..." And this is so with a lot of stuff, they aren't ignorant (although it often seems so, true)


EDIT: Oh, PS, aNILEator, I didn't meant 'platform' as in 'OS', I meant something different. But I can't find the right word or right stuff to explain it properly...

10 minutes

quote:

---

Originally posted by mattisdada
Docx and doc converstion is inbuilt and simple..... You just click save as either doc or docx . You can open up both and save as either.....

---

that's my point it needs to be done on office 2007 and i have to remember to do it useless, and the xml implemtaion was still useless